# At what point does someone have a right to reside in a country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255 "2018-01-09T18:22:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/121 "2018-01-12T20:57:46Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The term “anchor babies” is rightfully considered a derogatory term, but what would prevent illegal-immigrant parents from using this as an intentional strategy? What prevents _most_ parents from using their own children for personal gain? Are immigrants somehow less ethical/moral when it comes to their children than we are? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/122 "2018-01-13T02:09:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What prevents _most_ parents from using their own children for personal gain? Are immigrants somehow less ethical/moral when it comes to their children than we are? Well, many (no idea if it’s ‘most’) parents DO use their children for personal gain, even if that just means claiming them on your income tax or getting free labor to wash the dishes or cut the grass. 😛 I’m not sure what your objection is here…it’s a fact that a non-zero number of people (wealthy Chinese for instance) do indeed do this. And it’s not like it’s a harm or exploitation of the kids…the parents are often trying to give themselves AND their kids a better life here in the states than they would have back home. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/123 "2018-01-13T02:25:20Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Then the USA also was committing treason against Great Britain during the Revolutionary War. As King George put it to Ambassador Adams years later: “I wish you Sir, to believe, and that it may be understood in America, that I have done nothing in the late Contest, but what I thought myself indispensably bound to do, by the Duty which I owed to my People. I will be very frank with you. I was the last to consent to the Separation, but the Separation having been made and having become inevitable, I have always said, as I say now, that I would be the first to meet the Friendship of the United States as an independent Power." Of course then the Confederacy years later was trying to continue an institution that even Britain had abolished by then. An echo of how things change and sometimes former enemies turn better than you later is when nowadays we see a lot of xenophobia and fascism rearing their ugly head around the world and the USA… and it is the Germans who are the good guys now… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/124 "2018-01-13T15:49:55Z")
> [@GulfTiger](#): > > This has been the reality for centuries. > > And closely related, if you have a powerful military that can defeat the people occupying a landmass, you have the right to reside there. Correct to both of these. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/125 "2018-01-13T15:51:23Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Never. > It is a Nation-States privilege to decide who can and cannot reside within its borders. Otherwise, its not a Nation-State, its a jumped up province or municipality. +1000 to this. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/126 "2018-01-13T15:55:52Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > In America we have a long list of things the voters and their elected representatives aren’t allowed to do, you might have learned about this in school. If _enough_ people wanted to strip a particular ethnic group of citizenship and expel them from the country, and if it meant that much to them, sooner or later they’ll amend the constitution to do that. Constitutions are a roadblock, not an absolute bar to policy. (Some countries like India have partially unamendable constitutions, but I don’t think that’s that common). ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/127 "2018-01-13T17:32:22Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The term “anchor babies” is rightfully considered a derogatory term, but what would prevent illegal-immigrant parents from using this as an intentional strategy? Quite simply, [because in the vast majority of situations, it doesn’t work.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/08/20/the-myth-of-the-anchor-baby-deportation-defense/?utm_term=.d9c3fc6c87c3) **Eva Luna,** Immigration Paralegal ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/128 "2018-01-13T20:52:27Z")
It doesn’t work immediately, but the American child does have the right to move to the US as an adult and then apply to have his or her parents come over legally. That’s why family migration has to be reformed. It should be limited to high skill immigrants who can support their families. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/129 "2018-01-13T21:17:18Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It doesn’t work immediately, but the American child does have the right to move to the US as an adult and then apply to have his or her parents come over legally. That’s why family migration has to be reformed. It should be limited to high skill immigrants who can support their families. Sounds that you are a bit off; in my experience, even before Trump, it is required in the request that you should be over the poverty line and making enough to support a family member that is coming in. And also there are a lot of limitations for any government support or no support for new arrivals until several years after, meaning that usually the immigrants that do come via family migration are not coming to be a burden. They beg for jobs, not handouts. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/130 "2018-01-13T21:19:06Z")
I’m sure that’s what they want, but as with many things in the immigration system, what the law says and what our government actually does are two different things. I am aware of the law that potential immigrants must be judged unlikely to become a burden on society, and yet many are burdens on society. That part of the law is not adequately enforced. Since discretion has failed ,it’s time to take that discretion away and adopt a more Canadian immigration system. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/131 "2018-01-13T21:33:11Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > It is essentially unfair to those who take the time and effort to go through legal channels of immigration. It is rewarding line-jumpers. Only, the American immigration maze is set up in such a way that even if you’re following all the rules it is still possible (and in fact quite easy) to find yourself undocumented at some point. I was improperly documented for three months myself: - I had to be able to provide my unrestricted SS card within 15 days of entering the country, - but I could only ask for a new one in-country (my old one was restricted), - and the background check required before I was given the new card took three months, - during which I’d even had to surrender the old SS card, - and at no point did I get any receipts, nothing to indicate I was “being processed” and that the delay was no fault of mine. My previous stay in the US ended when my employer and my lawyer decided that it was “in the best interests of all parties involved” if I let my work permit lapse and just stayed ilegally; the employer refused to provide me a document I needed in order to ask for the renewal of the permit. A question to la migra about whether a letter from my manager would be acceptable instead was met with “you fucking stupid Hispanic whore,” very helpful. The penalty I faced for overstaying was losing everything I had. The penalty faced by my employer was a fine equivalent to my salary of a week. I could go back home, but what if I’d been from Haiti, el Salvador, Cuba? When the company’s HR manager investigated, she discovered that at any given time, 1/3 of the company’s employees were improperly documented and that the company would use that to blackmail them. Most of them weren’t from countries they could go back to, or go back to and have any hopes of a decent career, as I did. And any time you enter the country, the people at customs can decide they’re not letting you in simply because they don’t like your face, even if you have all appropriate paperwork. Expecting people to follow rules which are impossible to follow or stacked against those trying to follow them is, at the very least, cynical. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/132 "2018-01-13T21:45:50Z")
THat’s a great point, and it’s why we need immigration reform. Real immigration reform, not just amnesty plus some enforcement and calling that reform. The system just needs to work better. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/133 "2018-01-14T01:07:18Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m sure that’s what they want, but as with many things in the immigration system, what the law says and what our government actually does are two different things. I am aware of the law that potential immigrants must be judged unlikely to become a burden on society, and yet many are burdens on society. And I’m aware of that incomplete point. As it was pointed before the mayority are not. Trump and many Republicabs are still wong. > [@](#): > > That part of the law is not adequately enforced. Since discretion has failed ,it’s time to take that discretion away and adopt a more Canadian immigration system. Sorry, but the current executive has torched the very concept of discretion. As I have noted many times before, the conversation does feel like taking place in la la land when the Trump elephant is the one the republicans are allowing to set irrational inmigration policy. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/134 "2018-01-14T13:23:44Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It doesn’t work immediately, but the American child does have the right to move to the US as an adult and then apply to have his or her parents come over legally. That’s why family migration has to be reformed. It should be limited to high skill immigrants who can support their families. Define “skilled” There are plenty of immigrants in my city who own shops like Subways, 7-11s, food stalls, or their own grocery stores. They don’t hold IT degrees but they employ people and pay taxes to the city, state, and feds. They raise children who typically turn out to be entrepreneurial and/or educated. Besides, not every natural born citizen is interested in cleaning hotels or picking vegetables in 100 degree heat. Someone has to do the work. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/135 "2018-01-14T13:25:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The law of supply and demand makes it pretty clear. Not really. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2018, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/136 "2018-01-17T00:08:48Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Only, the American immigration maze is set up in such a way that even if you’re following all the rules it is still possible (and in fact quite easy) to find yourself undocumented at some point. I was improperly documented for three months myself: > > - I had to be able to provide my unrestricted SS card within 15 days of entering the country, > - but I could only ask for a new one in-country (my old one was restricted), > - and the background check required before I was given the new card took three months, > - during which I’d even had to surrender the old SS card, > - and at no point did I get any receipts, nothing to indicate I was “being processed” and that the delay was no fault of mine. > > My previous stay in the US ended when my employer and my lawyer decided that it was “in the best interests of all parties involved” if I let my work permit lapse and just stayed ilegally; the employer refused to provide me a document I needed in order to ask for the renewal of the permit. A question to la migra about whether a letter from my manager would be acceptable instead was met with “you fucking stupid Hispanic whore,” very helpful. > The penalty I faced for overstaying was losing everything I had. The penalty faced by my employer was a fine equivalent to my salary of a week. I could go back home, but what if I’d been from Haiti, el Salvador, Cuba? When the company’s HR manager investigated, she discovered that at any given time, 1/3 of the company’s employees were improperly documented and that the company would use that to blackmail them. Most of them weren’t from countries they could go back to, or go back to and have any hopes of a decent career, as I did. > > And any time you enter the country, the people at customs can decide they’re not letting you in simply because they don’t like your face, even if you have all appropriate paperwork. > > Expecting people to follow rules which are impossible to follow or stacked against those trying to follow them is, at the very least, cynical. If you find the immigration process in your adopted country difficult or problematic, does that mean you should be able to ignore it? I agree it is cumbersome but many legal immigrants are able to navigate it. No offense, but I doubt your story about an immigration official calling you a “fucking stupid Hispanic whore”. No offense. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/137 "2018-01-18T19:02:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What prevents _most_ parents from using their own children for personal gain? Are immigrants somehow less ethical/moral when it comes to their children than we are? Why would it be immoral or unethical to try to have a better life for you and your children? It is absolutely an intentional strategy. Pregnant women from Latin America come here to have their babies, they hope for a better life for themselves and their babies. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/138 "2018-01-18T19:12:33Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Not really. Yes really. Except at incredibly high income levels, more labor supply equals lower equilibrium wages. Do you have an argument other than “nuh unh”? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/139 "2018-01-18T20:19:33Z")
Actually, as I pointed out earlier, it’s not that clear cut. While immigrants (and an increase in labor availability in gen) _ **may** _ have a negative effect on some wages, as a whole it is a net increase. [According to the US Chamber of Commerce (PDF):](https://www.uschamber.com/sites/default/files/documents/files/022851_mythsfacts_2016_report_final.pdf) > [@](#): > > MYTH: Immigrants drive down the wages of American workers. > FACT: Immigrants give a slight boost to the average wages of Americans by increasing their productivity and stimulating investment. > > Immigrant workers increase the wages of native born workers in two ways. First, immigrants and natives tend to differ in the amount of education they have, the occupations in which they work, and the skill sets they possess. The jobs which immigrants and natives perform are often interdependent. This increases the > productivity of natives, which increases their wages. Second, the addition of immigrant workers to the labor force stimulates new investment in the economy, which in turn increases the demand for labor, exerting upward pressure on wages. mc ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255/140 "2018-01-19T03:41:29Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > If you find the immigration process in your adopted country difficult or problematic, does that mean you should be able to ignore it? I agree it is cumbersome but many legal immigrants are able to navigate it. Is it the goal to be “difficult or problematic”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-someone-have-a-right-to-reside-in-a-country/806255.md?page=8)