# At what point does the power to speak to the masses demand the responsibility of not lying? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 18, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533 "2013-10-18T00:07:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/41 "2013-10-18T14:02:16Z")
Well, she does read _all_ the newspapers. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/42 "2013-10-18T14:05:03Z")
> [@Dbgb4](#): > > As for current times. Why is it only Fox the only one being cited here. > > Everyone here thinks MSNBC, CBS, NBC, CNN, etc are all without sin ? Because Fox is the most obvious and egregious case, with the most viewers, most extreme bias, and the most harm to be done. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/43 "2013-10-18T14:24:17Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > Yes. I think we should have a national news organization called “Truth” that we can all trust. And this Federal Bureau of Truth should create a language that is more precise than everyday English. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Because Fox is the most obvious and egregious case, with the most viewers, most extreme bias, and the most harm to be done. I’ve found many just as egregious and extreme cases in MSNBC and CNN as I have in Fox News. All media is biased in this country. But that is for another thread, per tom’s comments. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/44 "2013-10-18T14:37:11Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > I believe that all government communications outside of direct law enforcement actions (e.g. “We’ll send you away for life if you don’t confess!”) should be completely truthful under lawful penalties. This includes statements by Congress . . . [That would be unconstitutional.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_and_debate_clause) ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/45 "2013-10-18T14:54:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [That would be unconstitutional.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_and_debate_clause) There are lawful penalties outside of arrest which wouldn’t violate the debate clause. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/46 "2013-10-18T14:55:37Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > The fact is that basically everything in that FOX article is complete rubbish. Absolutely wrong. It’s all lies. If you want to debate that, this is not the thread, and you’re simply wrong. Basically, should a major news network be allowed to do this? Should they be allowed to go on the air and lie their asses off? I don’t think so. I think that with the power of providing serious news to the masses on a medium seen by many as respectable comes the responsibility of not lying. Anyone else think so? So you complain about their arguments from assertion with one of your own, then state that debating any of the facts (or “facts”) is not what this thread is about. Yeah. Ok, so I’ll play - what about all the lies and distortions we get from politicians of both (or all) parties at just about every level? You hate Fox News, and that’s fine - but whant about when politicans lie to us - should they face sanction as well? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/47 "2013-10-18T14:57:53Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > There are lawful penalties outside of arrest which wouldn’t violate the debate clause. Such as? ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/48 "2013-10-18T15:32:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Such as? Anything that’s not arrest or detention. Fines. Expulsion. Public whipping. And so forth. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/49 "2013-10-18T15:34:26Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > Anything that’s not arrest or detention. Fines. Expulsion. Public whipping. And so forth. Publicly whipping someone without arresting or detaining them would be kinda weird. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/50 "2013-10-18T15:58:37Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Publicly whipping someone without arresting or detaining them would be kinda weird. They are free to leave and the whipper is free to follow. Although, that might cause some tourism. After all, wouldn’t you travel to see a man with a whip chasing some Congress persons down Pennsylvania Avenue? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/51 "2013-10-18T16:00:23Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Because Fox is the most obvious and egregious case, with the most viewers, most extreme bias, and the most harm to be done. Could you please provide cites that demonstrate that FoxNews is biased in ways that MSNBC, CBS, etc., are not? Feel free to read thru [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=321995) to see what kind of evidence you will need. Thanks in advance. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/52 "2013-10-18T16:10:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Could you please provide cites that demonstrate that FoxNews is biased in ways that MSNBC, CBS, etc., are not? > > Feel free to read thru [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=321995) to see what kind of evidence you will need. Thanks in advance. > > Regards, > Shodan Shodan, do you think any other news source would ever stoop so low as to [photoshop pictures of people they don’t like to make them look ugly?](http://meathaus.com/wp-content/images/fox-news-shitty-photoshop.jpg) [In addition, how do you feel about spreading known lies to slander and harass children who are parts of groups particularly prone to being abused by society?](http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/10/15/fox-nation-touts-fake-story-about-transgender-s/196436) ---
**Author:** ![TheSeaOtter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed655f/32.png) [@TheSeaOtter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheSeaOtter)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/53 "2013-10-18T17:06:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Could you please provide cites that demonstrate that FoxNews is biased in ways that MSNBC, CBS, etc., are not? > > Feel free to read thru [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=321995) to see what kind of evidence you will need. Thanks in advance. > > Regards, > Shodan I refer you to: > [@tomndebb](#): > > In the interest of trying to pursue an actually interesting discussion rather than descending into one more partisan “Is so/Is not” shit flinging, I am going to support the OP on one point: > > Do not argue whether the claims of the OP are accurate. Whether or not Fox or MSNBC or whatever group you hate actually lies, take any arguments for or against the OP’s assertions of accuracy or of the accuracy of the quoted text to a different thread. > > In this thread, stick to arguing whether there should be any level of censorship based on some (as yet undefined) basis of “Truth,” (or, at least, accuracy). > > [/Moderating] Personally, I see nothing objectionable in theory about the basic concept behind Truth in Advertising laws being applied to broadcast media. In practice, there are a few problems. For instance: False advertising is handled by the FTC. Do we really want to put a federal department in charge of challenging media when it’s lying? If not, who’s going to handle that? How do we ensure that they challenge all false information equally, and don’t ignore lies which are convenient for the government? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/54 "2013-10-18T17:10:45Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > So you complain about their arguments from assertion with one of your own, then state that debating any of the facts (or “facts”) is not what this thread is about. > > Yeah. > > Ok, so I’ll play - what about all the lies and distortions we get from politicians of both (or all) parties at just about every level? You hate Fox News, and that’s fine - but whant about when politicans lie to us - should they face sanction as well? If it can reasonably be argued that: a) It is a lie that influences public policy opinion and b) it can be shown that there is no excuse for them to have it wrong (i.e. a politician could get away with saying something when they don’t know, but if they’ve previously been personally corrected by a major economist or something they couldn’t) Then yes. They should. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/55 "2013-10-18T17:38:38Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > Shodan, do you think any other news source would ever stoop so low as to [photoshop pictures of people they don’t like to make them look ugly?](http://meathaus.com/wp-content/images/fox-news-shitty-photoshop.jpg) > > [In addition, how do you feel about spreading known lies to slander and harass children who are parts of groups particularly prone to being abused by society?](http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/10/15/fox-nation-touts-fake-story-about-transgender-s/196436) On preview, it appears **tomndebb** is disallowing fact-based argumentation in this thread. So never mind, I guess. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/56 "2013-10-18T18:14:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > On preview, it appears **tomndebb** is disallowing fact-based argumentation in this thread. So never mind, I guess. > > Regards, > Shodan What’s wrong with you? He’s not saying you can’t argue with facts, he’s saying that the debate is about how and whether to punish people who say or write untrue things. Whether Fox News is an example of an organization that regularly lies or tells the truth is irrelevant to the debate. Yeah, I’m sure plenty of people have in mind some particular target or other for the Ministry of Truth. So what? Whether Fox News are lying liars is not the point of the debate. We’ve had 593 threads about Fox News and whether or not they are lying liars. If you want to start another one go start another one. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/57 "2013-10-18T18:18:54Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > And this Federal Bureau of Truth should create a language that is more precise than everyday English. Or Russian. We could call it Pravda (“truth” in Russian) to which I was attempting a satirical reference. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/58 "2013-10-18T18:25:32Z")
My apologies, I was mistaking this thread for [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=667548&page=6) and invite Shodan to reply there. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/59 "2013-10-18T19:36:19Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > Or Russian. We could call it Pravda (“truth” in Russian) to which I was attempting a satirical reference. Oh. The Russians. I thought you were referencing 1984. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533/60 "2013-10-18T19:51:27Z")
I don’t really see how the number of people a message reaches has any bearing on the responsibility to be honest. I think the whole concept of honesty scales quite well from one-to-one to one-to-many speech. In the case of one-to-one, we choose individual people to have around us, and we choose them based on various reasons. For most of us, honesty is probably at least part of the reason why we choose to surround ourselves with certain people, but we also surround ourselves with people who agree with us, or maybe even knowingly lie to us. Frankly, sometimes honesty sucks, but ultimately we choose to have honest people in our lives by continuing to have relationships with them or to reduce or end them. The media is the same way. We choose our sources of news, entertainment, or whatever based on similar sorts of values. And when it comes to mass-media, their primary motivation, rightly or wrongly, isn’t to give unbiased news, it’s to maximize their profits by maximizing their audience, and this means telling them what they want to hear. Sometimes this means being brutally honest, but more often, it means telling it to them in a way that’s consistent with their world views. And we decide which media is popular by voting with our eyes, ears, and wallets. As far as enforcing with government, I think that’s a bad idea, because it’s a ultimately a social/cultural issue. Worse, how can we even meaningfully enforce it in a way that’s fair to all of the views? Rather, I think we have to hold a significant part of the responsibility to demand more from our media. Right now, though, I think we’re still trying to figure out how this whole 24-hour news cycle works, differentiating between the opinion and commentary shows that some people treat as news and just the straight news. The thing is, generally the opinion and commentary shows are where most of the bias is but are also more entertaining, so it ends up skewing everything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-does-the-power-to-speak-to-the-masses-demand-the-responsibility-of-not-lying/671533.md?page=4)