# At what point in the evolution of Homo as a species could there have been a recognition moment? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 10, 2025, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914 "2025-08-10T19:26:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2025, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/41 "2025-08-11T23:07:01Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’m not so sure that that’s the standard: If we ever did meet elves, I’m sure plenty of humans would have sex with them (or at least, want to: I’m not sure if the elves would feel the same way), while still recognizing them as something other than human Would we? Recognize them as something other than human? We might understand intellectually that they were very different from us in a biological sense, but at an instinctive level, we’d still think of them as “people”. Same thing with angels and humanoid aliens. Humans have a strong tendency to anthropomorphize things that aren’t human, like dolls or pets or fictional characters. If we can pretend someone is a person, we’ll think of them as one. I suspect that that drive is more powerful than the drive to “other” people that are different from us. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2025, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/42 "2025-08-11T23:43:56Z")
“People” is not synonymous with “humans”. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2025, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/43 "2025-08-11T23:51:47Z")
Expand on this please. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2025, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/44 "2025-08-12T01:55:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Sometimes, but not necessarily. Most stories of human-elf relations are mutually consensual. And none are from the elf’s point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2025, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/45 "2025-08-12T02:00:28Z")
That’s not entirely accurate. We’re all forgetting the ground-breaking film, “Fast Times At Elfmont High”. One of the remarkable things about that movie is that it was directed by a female homo sapien and it depicted, for the very first time, a sexual encounter from the elf’s point of view. Agreed, these situations are rare. But there you have it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2025, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/46 "2025-08-12T09:09:46Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > Sometimes, but not necessarily. Most stories of human-elf relations are mutually consensual. > > And none are from the elf’s point of view. Actually, I have read an attempt to depict such a relationship from the elf viewpoint. Of course, it was written by an _H. sapien_ so it’s probably not accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2025, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/47 "2025-08-12T11:36:58Z")
But this thread is about the theoretical relationship between Homo Sapiens and other sentient species, and that, IMHO, will based on whether they’re considered people, not whether they’re considered humans. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2025, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/48 "2025-08-12T12:21:52Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Expand on this please. “Human” is a particular species, or maybe a particular genus. A “person”, meanwhile, could also be some other race of living creature like an elf or an alien, or a supernatural being like a fey or angel, or a sufficiently-advanced AI. The definition of “person” is hard to pin down precisely, since we have a shortage of non-human persons in our world, but one definition might be “a sapient entity with moral agency”. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2025, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/49 "2025-08-12T13:34:34Z")
Thank you. That’s superb. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2025, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/50 "2025-08-12T15:40:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > this thread is about the theoretical relationship between Homo Sapiens and other sentient species, and that, IMHO, will based on whether they’re considered people, not whether they’re considered humans That, to me at least, is the relevant distinction. That is, whether I’d personally be physically attracted to a member of the other species would depend on the species; whether a physical relationship would be physically possible would depend on the species; but whether it would be morally acceptable depends on the intelligence level. Of course, in some hypothetical cases with ET’s, it’s the human side which might be considered not bright enough to give consent. I wonder whether, for some people in prehistory, it might have come down to ‘does this other hominin have language?’ – but we don’t know when our kind of hominin first developed what we would call language, either. Or whether at some points it might have been along the lines of ‘eh, we have verb tenses and can talk about hypotheticals, they can just say “We want to be friends. Do you want to have sex?” – I’m horny, that’s close enough.’ In some senses, of course, a dog can say “I want to be friends. Let’s have sex!” Some dogs often do; including to humans. The leg-humping dog is pretty notorious. A willingness to have sex, or at least to attempt to, with a different species is clearly not limited to humans. (Or to humans and dogs. I’ve had a young tomcat determinedly try to hump my arm. He wasn’t interested in objects, but he clearly didn’t care about species.) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2025, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/51 "2025-08-12T16:38:08Z")
As far as other animals have sex outside their species - apparently those cute bottlenose dolphins are inter-species rapists. Also, male tortoises are somewhat known for humping objects, some of which bear little resemblance to females of their species. And wasn’t there some insect in Australia in danger of extinction due to so many of them having sex with some particular item of trash rather than females of their own species? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2025, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/52 "2025-08-12T18:24:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And wasn’t there some insect in Australia in danger of extinction due to so many of them having sex with some particular item of trash rather than females of their own species? The point with some of these things is that many creatures respond most to particular features, and exaggerated versions of that one feature results in an exaggerated response even if nothing else is like a potential mate, a supranormal stimulus. [Here’s](https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/super-normal-sign-stimuli-what-the-heck) the one you’re probably thinking of. > Australian Jewel Beetle, whose males began attempting to copulate with beer bottles, because the bottles were bumpy and orange-brown. It turns out that the top of the female beetles is also orange-brown and bumpy, but the females were small and the beer bottles were HUGE and the males were absolutely helpless in their presence. (I call this the Dolly Parton effect, if you get my drift.) The males ignored the real females so frequently that the population, (according to a nature special) began to decline. I’m told that the beer company actually changed the bottles so that the males went back to the females. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2025, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/53 "2025-08-12T18:33:47Z")
My day is just starting in Hawaii and I’ve already learned something new. The Jewel Beetle and carnal knowledge of beer bottles. Go Dope! ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2025, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/54 "2025-08-12T19:23:34Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The point with some of these things is that many creatures respond most to particular features, and exaggerated versions of that one feature results in an exaggerated response even if nothing else is like a potential mate, a supranormal stimulus. I don’t think that explains either the tomcat humping my arm or the dogs humping human legs. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2025, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/55 "2025-08-12T22:19:32Z")
For those I am not sure they are actually sexual behaviors? My understanding has been that those behaviors in dogs and cats are attempts to be dominant. A social status thing. Neutered pets will do them. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2025, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/56 "2025-08-12T22:24:21Z")
They’re definitely social status things, but that doesn’t mean that they’re not sexual things. Sex and social status are closely tied together in most animals that have social status. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2025, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/57 "2025-08-12T22:27:50Z")
I can’t speak for everybody’s dog; but in this cat it was unquestionably a sexual behavior. And it stopped entirely when he was neutered, though his other behavior towards me didn’t change a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2025, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/58 "2025-08-13T00:25:38Z")
I’ll watch anything with Ella al-Shamahi in it. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2025, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/59 "2025-08-13T00:43:13Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > But did these early people recognise each other as human? Interesting question. Many _Homo Sapiens_ don’t even recognize each other as human. I’m being partially facetious there, but modern humans are very good at othering each other, so I would expect that prehistoric humans would’ve had that exact tendency. It seems to me that the only real question would’ve been whether _sapiens_ and _neanderthal_ would’ve put one another in the same category as themselves. I’d lean toward “yes” since there was interbreeding, and anyone who knows about animals (which they probably did) would see they produced fertile offspring and consider them to be the same sort of creature. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2025, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914/60 "2025-08-13T02:30:19Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > [Here’s](https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/super-normal-sign-stimuli-what-the-heck) the one you’re probably thinking of. And here’s [a more detailed NPR story on the doomed love affair of the Australian jewel beetle and the bumpy brown beer bottle.](https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2013/06/19/193493225/the-love-that-dared-not-speak-its-name-of-a-beetle-for-a-beer-bottle) With pix (SFW). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-in-the-evolution-of-homo-as-a-species-could-there-have-been-a-recognition-moment/1021914.md?page=4)