# At what point is someone "forced' to do something? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2016, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646 "2016-09-01T12:52:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/1 "2016-09-01T12:52:29Z")
In the thread about the French banning burkinis, the issue of coercion came up, and there appeared to be a difference in what posters considered to be being “forced” to do something - some envisioning physical violence while others felt that societal or familial non-violent pressure sufficed as well. Obviously, coercion runs along a spectrum - at the one end, brutal physical violence, and at the other end, perhaps just mere verbal disapproval - but at what point would you consider someone to be “forced” into a particular course of action? Potential for financial loss? Societal and familial pressure? Anything that entails punitive consequences? Other negative consequences? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/2 "2016-09-01T13:09:05Z")
I think there’s a distinction between “not allowed to do something you want” and “you must do this thing you find repugnant”. Telling people they can’t wear burkinis is a violation that wouldn’t be allowed here, but it’s less an issue of force than if they were told they had to wear a miniskirt or else. But in the end, all laws are backed by deadly force. BLM understands that well. Any minor infraction can turn into a deadly incident if you resist the authorities(or appear to be resisting in their eyes). ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/3 "2016-09-01T16:35:33Z")
Generally speaking, a short time after the judge signs the court order the police will show up and force you to do whatever the order says you are to do. Sometimes the police don’t need the order, for example a policeman says to drop the gun, and you don’t, they will fill your body full of bullets thus “forcing” you to drop the gun. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/4 "2016-09-01T16:42:50Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Generally speaking, a short time after the judge signs the court order the police will show up and force you to do whatever the order says you are to do. Sometimes the police don’t need the order, for example a policeman says to drop the gun, and you don’t, they will fill your body full of bullets thus “forcing” you to drop the gun. Right, because if my boss tells me I have to work Saturday, the cops will be by shortly to pump me full of bullets. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/5 "2016-09-01T16:47:49Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Obviously, coercion runs along a spectrum - at the one end, brutal physical violence, and at the other end, perhaps just mere verbal disapproval - but at what point would you consider someone to be “forced” into a particular course of action? > > Potential for financial loss? Societal and familial pressure? Anything that entails punitive consequences? Other negative consequences? So if you go all the way to the extreme – threaten eternal torment for those who don’t, does the Christian god “force” his adherents to accept Christ as their savior? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/6 "2016-09-01T17:19:31Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Obviously, coercion runs along a spectrum - at the one end, brutal physical violence, and at the other end, perhaps just mere verbal disapproval - but at what point would you consider someone to be “forced” into a particular course of action? > Potential for financial loss? Societal and familial pressure? Anything that entails punitive consequences? Other negative consequences? I’d say it’s when the negative consequences are both severe enough, and realistic enough, to overcome the desire to act in the proscribed manor. Of course, both “severe enough” and “realistic enough” are highly dependent on individual situations. For example, kids can be “forced” to do many things by their parents that adults would be able to resist, largely because kids are, both legally and practically, entirely dependent on their parents. A threat to not pay for something, or to disallow a particular activity, is both far more severe, and realistic to a kid. An adult would have the option of moving out and getting a job. This also applies to adults in different situations. A recent immigrant, with no education, or an education that is not recognized in the new country, with possible language difficulties, is much easier to “force” into certain behaviors than a native citizen would be. This is where the familial and social pressures come into play - the people in question may not be able to see any way they could survive absent the support of their family and friends, and so capitulate to their demands, when someone not in that state would more likely tell their family to get bent. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/7 "2016-09-01T17:35:15Z")
Legislation is force. Threat of serious physical violence is force. Threat of losing your job is force. Spousal, peer, societal pressure is not force. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/8 "2016-09-01T18:31:01Z")
The attempt to make someone do something without their independent assessment that doing so is indeed what they want to do is coercive. That definitely includes the deliberate use of reward and/or punishment. Obviously that’s a sufficiently broad-spectrum definition that eliminating it is not possible. It’s part of life. The rest is not a matter of crossing some kind of line in a black-and-white world and now you’re in coercion-land, but is instead complicated shades of grey. Ethically, humans should coerce as little and as seldom as possible; and our systems of social org should be set up accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/9 "2016-09-01T18:42:45Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > Right, because if my boss tells me I have to work Saturday, the cops will be by shortly to pump me full of bullets. That must be specific to your jurisdiction. Around here if an employer uses physical force on an employee, the employer will be arrested and charged with the crime of assault. > [@PastTense](#): > > Legislation is force. Threat of serious physical violence is force. Threat of losing your job is force. > > Spousal, peer, societal pressure is not force. Depends on the job market … I’ve walked off plenty of jobs with every expectation of having another within a half day. Hell, I’ve walked off a job simply because I didn’t think I was being paid enough for what they asked me to do, walked a half a block to a guy who promised to never ask me to do such. No way would I finish concrete for carpenter’s pay. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/10 "2016-09-02T00:25:53Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Generally speaking, a short time after the judge signs the court order the police will show up and force you to do whatever the order says you are to do. Sometimes the police don’t need the order, for example a policeman says to drop the gun, and you don’t, they will fill your body full of bullets thus “forcing” you to drop the gun. > [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > Right, because if my boss tells me I have to work Saturday, the cops will be by shortly to pump me full of bullets. What in the world does your comment have to do with **WatchWolf’s** comment? That makes no sense whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/11 "2016-09-02T04:09:40Z")
If your boss is your platoon leader I suppose that could happen since you’d be AWOL. But otherwise, no. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/12 "2016-09-02T11:27:00Z")
> [@](#): > > The attempt to make someone do something without their independent assessment that doing so is indeed what they want to do is coercive. So…by this definition, I’m pretty sure no one would pay income tax without the ‘coercion’ of laws requiring it. Ditto alimony, departure tax, speeding tickets. All coerced. Yet society seems to function pretty well regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/13 "2016-09-02T12:41:28Z")
Being ‘forced’ is about being presented with consequences such that you prefer to do the thing being demanded of you rather than the alternative. So, what counts as force is going to depend a lot on context and on the people involved. There is no “this action counts as forced, but this one doesn’t” as the OP suggests. What might make my brain scream “Do **X** so that they don’t do **Y**!!!” might make you just shrug your shoulders and say, “I don’t care at all if you do **Y** , go right ahead, I’m not doing **X**.” And, just because you might be a person who doesn’t feel forced to do something because of the threat of **Y** doesn’t negate the fact that someone else might be forced by that same stimulus. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/14 "2016-09-02T12:53:21Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > So…by this definition, I’m pretty sure no one would pay income tax without the ‘coercion’ of laws requiring it. > Ditto alimony, departure tax, speeding tickets. > > All coerced. Yet society seems to function pretty well regardless. That depends. Tax laws are a good example of laws that breed disrespect for the law because cheating is so widespread: > [@](#): > > On average, poll-takers estimate that about one-third of Americans intentionally cheat when filling out their tax returns. > **[Poll: Most Americans say filing taxes easy](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2014/04/09/ap-gfk-poll-most-americans-say-filing-taxes-easy/7517721/)** > > Poll also found almost no one is willing to pay higher taxes in exchange for simpler code. If the government cracked down on this, there’d be a rebellion. So instead they try to tamp down resistance by making examples of people who pubilcly refuse to pay taxes. And you know what they do? they send men with guns to their house: > **[Edward and Elaine Brown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_and_Elaine_Brown)** > > Edward Lewis Brown (born 1942) and his wife, Elaine Alice Brown (born c. 1940), residents of the state of New Hampshire, gained national news media attention as tax protesters in early 2007 for refusing to pay the U.S. federal income tax and subsequently refusing to surrender to federal government agents after having been convicted of tax crimes. > After the conviction and sentencing, a long, armed standoff with federal law enforcement authorities at their New Hampshire residence ended with the a... ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/15 "2016-09-02T13:22:38Z")
There was a series of rapes when the rapists would break into a house, tie up the man and put a gun to head, and threaten to shot him if the woman didn’t have sex with them. In court, the rapists claim it was rape because they never threatened the woman with anything. Judge did not buy it. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/16 "2016-09-03T01:16:46Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > There was a series of rapes when the rapists would break into a house, tie up the man and put a gun to head, and threaten to shot him if the woman didn’t have sex with them. > > In court, the rapists claim it was rape because they never threatened the woman with anything. > > Judge did not buy it. “Yes, your honor, it **was** rape, because I didn’t threaten her.” “What kind of fool do you take me for? I don’t believe you for one second. Case dismissed!” What a fiendishly clever defense. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/17 "2016-09-03T02:54:32Z")
All choices are “forced” to a degree. I would rather have $150 in my wallet, but my family needs groceries. Is the purchase of groceries coerced? It happens in plea hearings all of the time. The judge asks the defendant if he is entering his guilty plea “freely and voluntarily” and “without any threats or coercion.” He answers “yes.” Well, if he didn’t accept the plea deal, he would be sentenced to a much longer term in prison. I consider it laughable to say in any meaningful way that he entered the plea freely. He would much rather just walk out of jail. As such, the meaning of “free choice” implies the disclaimer “given all other impediments to your choice that are legally placed upon you.” Society only prohibits those types of “forced” choices we consider unacceptable, and that is implied in the definition of coercion. Nobody owes me free groceries or a get out of jail free card. Therefore, so long as the alternative does not violate the law or public policy, the choice is considered a free one. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/18 "2016-09-03T04:09:09Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > So if you go all the way to the extreme – threaten eternal torment for those who don’t, does the Christian god “force” his adherents to accept Christ as their savior? Is there a Godwin’s Law or Rule 34 for this? ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/19 "2016-09-03T12:49:58Z")
Saying you were “forced” to do something only works if there is a punishment or consequence for inaction. But usually I hear people saying it the other way around… They _want_ to do something and are just trying to justify it after the fact. Like if someone were to say, “The government banned heroin, so I’m forced to buy it from a drug dealer.” No, you _chose_ to buy it from a drug dealer _despite_ the prohibition. Nobody _forced_ you to do anything. Sitting at home on your couch was a perfectly valid option. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646/20 "2016-09-04T02:12:33Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In the thread about the French banning burkinis, the issue of coercion came up, and there appeared to be a difference in what posters considered to be being “forced” to do something - some envisioning physical violence while others felt that societal or familial non-violent pressure sufficed as well. > Obviously, coercion runs along a spectrum - at the one end, brutal physical violence, and at the other end, perhaps just mere verbal disapproval - but at what point would you consider someone to be “forced” into a particular course of action? > Potential for financial loss? Societal and familial pressure? Anything that entails punitive consequences? Other negative consequences? Only the use or threat of physical violence is coercive. Claiming anything else is an attempt to adopt the language of libertarianism and come to a statist conclusion which always results in real-deal coercion. If a guy can’t get a date because he refuses to bathe, is he being coerced by society into lathering up? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-point-is-someone-forced-to-do-something/764646.md?page=2)