# At what price victory? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945 "2009-08-19T13:13:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/21 "2009-08-19T16:00:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You would believe there are more idiot conservatives than idiot liberals, if you spent an hour lurking on Democratic Underground and an hour lurking on Free Republic. No, having seen what passes for political discourse on DU, I am fairly certain that Free Republic couldn’t be any worse. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/22 "2009-08-19T16:14:27Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > If we’re including looney terrorists in our definition of political activists, can I use the Weather Underground? :rolleyes: When was this discussion confined to political activists? You said there was anti-Clinton sentiment but that it didn’t approach the level of anti-Bush and anti-Obama sentiment. I pointed out that maybe that’s not so, and used several other examples you didn’t respond to. Yes, there was hardcore anti-Clinton sentiment that rivaled what we’re seeing now. There were militias who were (cough) up in arms about Waco and about the Assault Weapons Ban. I can’t speak to specific comparisons to Hitler, but there’s more than just Nazi comparisons out there. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/23 "2009-08-19T16:24:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Done both. Still don’t believe you. > > It is likely to be due to the common human failing of considering what you notice to be equivalent to what is. > > Like I said, liberal Dopers comb the rest of the Internet, and pick out the worst they can find, and then Pit it. Don’t believe me? Cool - show me the last time some liberal started a thread about how someone on FreeRepublic made a good point. > > Regards, > Shodan First show me the last time someone on FreeRepublic actually made a good point, and then show me that it wasn’t drowned out by WE HAVEN’T SEEN HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE, or worse. Hell, when the thread about Malia being called “ghetto” happened, there were people who cried foul on it–two or three in about fifty posts. The rest were agreeing or egging it on. I can’t show you something that doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/24 "2009-08-19T16:30:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > When was this discussion confined to political activists? You said there was anti-Clinton sentiment but that it didn’t approach the level of anti-Bush and anti-Obama sentiment. I pointed out that maybe that’s not so, and used several other examples you didn’t respond to. Yes, there was hardcore anti-Clinton sentiment that rivaled what we’re seeing now. There were militias who were (cough) up in arms about Waco and about the Assault Weapons Ban. I can’t speak to specific comparisons to Hitler, but there’s more than just Nazi comparisons out there. McVeigh wasn’t JUST about Clinton…he started being pissed off at the government with the Ruby Ridge incident, which happened under the first President Bush. He hated the federal government, not just the Clinton administration. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/25 "2009-08-19T16:43:16Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > First show me the last time someone on FreeRepublic actually made a good point, and then show me that it wasn’t drowned out by WE HAVEN’T SEEN HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE, or worse. Hell, when the thread about Malia being called “ghetto” happened, there were people who cried foul on it–two or three in about fifty posts. The rest were agreeing or egging it on. > > I can’t show you something that doesn’t exist. This is pretty much what I meant - you ignored the (few) good points and focussed on the others. And then went on to conclude that no one has ever made a good point. Rather like the Pit thread to which I linked earlier, in fact. There we had one or two Dopers making good points about it, and several others egging the OP on. From which we can conclude that the SDMB is no better than the worst of FreeRepublic, just from the other side. And you can’t ever show that anyone made a good point, because they don’t exist without being drowned out. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/26 "2009-08-19T16:49:15Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > McVeigh wasn’t JUST about Clinton…he started being pissed off at the government with the Ruby Ridge incident, which happened under the first President Bush. He hated the federal government, not just the Clinton administration. All true. So what about the rumors that the Clintons had Vincent Foster murdered, that Bill Clinton was involved in drug dealing, the people who _weren’t_ Tim McVeight who were upset over Waco and the Assault Weapons Ban? It’s true that I can’t cite a specific comparison of Clinton to Hitler, but I’d bet there were some of them, and there are plenty of ways to make insane political comparisons without mentioning Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/27 "2009-08-19T16:49:23Z")
I think this is getting at a larger issue with all American politics. Is it better to win or to be right? If tomorrow the two parties switched sides on an issue, there are people who would shrug and make the new side part of their internal platform. A side can “win” by simply coopting the other party’s viewpoint and declaring victory. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/28 "2009-08-19T17:09:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > All true. So what about the rumors that the Clintons had Vincent Foster murdered, that Bill Clinton was involved in drug dealing, the people who _weren’t_ Tim McVeight who were upset over Waco and the Assault Weapons Ban? It’s true that I can’t cite a specific comparison of Clinton to Hitler, but I’d bet there were some of them, and there are plenty of ways to make insane political comparisons without mentioning Hitler. I don’t deny there were both legitimate and whacked-out-conspiracy-theory criticisms of the Clinton administration, but that’s been true of just about every president since LBJ. The difference is, people weren’t holding mass demonstrations and burning or hanging Clinton in effigy. I guess if you want to go way back, that shit started during Vietnam, and was used against LBJ and Nixon, but it settled down a great deal (in this country at least) after the war ended and Nixon left office. It didn’t hit its full stride again until the Iraq war, but there’s a difference now…the opposition on the other side of the spectrum is just as organized now as the left was then. Frankly, the hurt feelings over how the town meetings are going seems like nothing but sour grapes to me: “You can’t use those tactics! Those are OUR tactics!” ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/29 "2009-08-19T17:18:35Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > [http://www.theodoresworld.net/pcfreezone/vile5.jpg](http://www.theodoresworld.net/pcfreezone/vile5.jpg) Uh huh. As I said, I’m asserting not that it didn’t happen, but that it wasn’t ANSWER or another socialist organization. You’ve provided a sign but no definitive proof of which organization (if any) is behind it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/30 "2009-08-19T17:33:35Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > First show me the last time someone on FreeRepublic actually made a good point, and then show me that it wasn’t drowned out by WE HAVEN’T SEEN HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE, or worse. Hell, when the thread about Malia being called “ghetto” happened, there were people who cried foul on it–two or three in about fifty posts. The rest were agreeing or egging it on. > > I can’t show you something that doesn’t exist. There are definitely sensible people on Free Republic. Some of the better posts I’ve seen regarding the Birfers are from there, such as people saying that Obama has no burden to prove his birthplace beyond what he’s already done–that his accusers have the burden, etc. I don’t agree with most of the posters there, but there are quite a few I’d enjoy having around here. I don’t see how them getting drowned out makes them not exist. I might be misreading your post. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/31 "2009-08-19T17:39:28Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Frankly, the hurt feelings over how the town meetings are going seems like nothing but sour grapes to me: “You can’t use those tactics! Those are OUR tactics!” To some degree I think that’s true, and I don’t mind if people go nuts and shout at politicians sometimes. Then again, “don’t go to war” might not equal “if this health care bill passes, Obama’s people will decide who lives and who dies.” I don’t think people burned Clinton in effigy, and I do think greater ratings for cable news, increased media partisanship and social networking sites make a difference. But I don’t think this is just the right adopting the tactics the left used against Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/32 "2009-08-19T18:03:31Z")
The Obama = Hitler comparisons aren’t just reserved to a few crackpots. It’s a mainstream meme amonst the Republican crowd. Rush Limbaugh, who has [at least](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/06/AR2009030603435.html) 14 million listeners, has compared Obama’s healthcare symbol with the Nazi Party Eagle ([cite](http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_080609/content/01125106.guest.html) from Rush’s own website) Sarah Palin, the Republican Vice Presidential candidate in 2008, evocked the idea of “[Death Panels](http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/08/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5226795.shtml)” that will kill the disabled and elderly based on their “productivity to society.” She didn’t use the word “Hitler” or “Nazi”, but she’s certainly trying to evoke the same kind of blind fear and hatred and has contributed towards the godwinizing of the national healthcare debate. Newt Gingrich, former Republican Speaker of the House, [defended](http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2009/08/gingrich-defends-palins-death-panels-.html) Sarah Palin’s “Death Panel” remark and used the term “euthanasia.” Senator Chuck Grassley (R-IA) [said](http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/12/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5237320.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody) at a town hall that "“You have every right to fear. You shouldn’t have counseling at the end of life, you should have done that 20 years before. Should not have a government run plan to decide when to pull the plug on grandma.” > [@CBS News](#): > > House Republican Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) and Republican Policy Committee Chairman Thaddeus McCotter (R-Mich.) put out a statement last month claiming the health care legislation “may place seniors in situations where they feel pressured to sign end of life directives they would not otherwise sign. This provision may start us down a treacherous path toward government-encouraged euthanasia if enacted into law.”[Ibid] At what point will it take the GOP apologists on this board to admit that this isn’t just a few bad apples, this is a widespread attitude that has infected their party? Can any of your [tu quoques](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque) for the other side even come close to what I’ve just cited? I know that anecdotes are not data, but I’m going to add it here anyway. I work in a restaurant, so I interact with the public quite a bit. I overheard a group of four seniors talking about Obama, and using the words “Adolf Hitler” and “Soylent Green.” I’ve been working this job for over 3 years, and I NEVER heard any similar rhetoric about Bush as I passed by customer’s tables. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/33 "2009-08-19T18:11:54Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > If we’re including looney terrorists in our definition of political activists, can I use the Weather Underground? :rolleyes: No, because: [ul] [li]That was a long time ago[/li][li]They hardly killed anyone[/li][li]The Vietnam War was real, the New World Order is not[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/34 "2009-08-19T18:36:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > All true. So what about the rumors that the Clintons had Vincent Foster murdered, that Bill Clinton was involved in drug dealing, the people who _weren’t_ Tim McVeight who were upset over Waco and the Assault Weapons Ban? It’s true that I can’t cite a specific comparison of Clinton to Hitler, but I’d bet there were some of them, and there are plenty of ways to make insane political comparisons without mentioning Hitler. I do recall a bumper-sticker, “CLINTON FOR CHANGE,” with both C’s rendered as hammer-and-sickle. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/35 "2009-08-19T18:43:35Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > No, having seen what passes for political discourse on DU, I am fairly certain that Free Republic couldn’t be any worse. Oh, it’s worse. It’s a **lot** worse, both in stupidity and in venom. Both are partisan echo-chambers, of course, but beyond that there’s no comparison. At least the DUers clearly live on the same planet as the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/36 "2009-08-19T18:50:53Z")
I can certainly see the reasoning there. “I’ve examined A, and found A to be vile, malicious, and mendacious. That’s as bad as it gets, therefore B cannot possibly be worse.” Were you educated by Jesuits, by any chance? ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/37 "2009-08-19T19:52:57Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Uh huh. As I said, I’m asserting not that it didn’t happen, but that it wasn’t ANSWER or another socialist organization. You’ve provided a sign but no definitive proof of which organization (if any) is behind it. I don’t know how to prove to you that it was ANSWER. I do know it was at a demonstration put on by ANSWER, but I didn’t personally interview the people. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/38 "2009-08-19T19:54:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > To some degree I think that’s true, and I don’t mind if people go nuts and shout at politicians sometimes. Then again, “don’t go to war” might not equal “if this health care bill passes, Obama’s people will decide who lives and who dies.” I don’t know why not…both involve life and death. > [@](#): > > I don’t think people burned Clinton in effigy, and I do think greater ratings for cable news, increased media partisanship and social networking sites make a difference. But I don’t think this is just the right adopting the tactics the left used against Bush. I think it’s exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/39 "2009-08-19T19:55:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Oh, it’s worse. It’s a **lot** worse, both in stupidity and in venom. Both are partisan echo-chambers, of course, but beyond that there’s no comparison. At least the DUers clearly live on the same planet as the rest of us. Oh, now THAT is definitely not true. They are as alien as anything I’ve read in an SF novel. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/40 "2009-08-19T20:11:53Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > I don’t know how to prove to you that it was ANSWER. I do know it was at a demonstration put on by ANSWER, but I didn’t personally interview the people. Sure it wasn’t ACORN? I thought I had heard that they had used Soros money to finance a purge of ANSWER for being insuffienctly supportive of free drugs for illegal aliens, so ANSWER no longer has Central Committe authorization to “put on” demonstrations. But I haven’t gotten my memo from Commissar Fonda yet, so maybe not… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945.md?page=3)