# At what price victory? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945 "2009-08-19T13:13:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/41 "2009-08-19T20:12:16Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > I don’t know why not…both involve life and death. You make a _very_ superficial comparison here. War will definitely kill people. According to some very conservative estimates, at least 110,000 Iraqis have [died](http://abcnews.go.com/International/WireStory?id=7411522) as a result of the war’s aftermath. I think 100k plus dead Iraqis and 4k+ dead American soldiers can justify a little bit of hysteria. Especially when there’s some very convincing evidence we we’re [lied](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_Memo) to about the threat Iraq posed. Where are the numbers that show Universal Healthcare will kill people instead of save them? If this were true, why do the countries with UHC have [higher](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20228552/) life expectancies than we do? What can possibly justify the freakout we’ve been seeing? > [@](#): > > I think it’s exactly that. Please see post #32. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/42 "2009-08-19T20:15:51Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > The Obama = Hitler comparisons aren’t just reserved to a few crackpots. It’s a mainstream meme amonst the Republican crowd. Rush Limbaugh, who has [at least](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/06/AR2009030603435.html) 14 million listeners, has compared Obama’s healthcare symbol with the Nazi Party Eagle ([cite](http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_080609/content/01125106.guest.html) from Rush’s own website) I will grant this is an invocation of Nazism. > [@](#): > > Sarah Palin, the Republican Vice Presidential candidate in 2008, evocked the idea of “[Death Panels](http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/08/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5226795.shtml)” that will kill the disabled and elderly based on their “productivity to society.” She didn’t use the word “Hitler” or “Nazi”, but she’s certainly trying to evoke the same kind of blind fear and hatred and has contributed towards the godwinizing of the national healthcare debate. No, no. You can’t jump off the bandwagon that quickly. You cannot equate actual use of Nazi words or images – a legitimately condemned tactic – with “trying to evoke the same kind of blind fear and hatred.” Sorry. That’s cheating. > [@](#): > > Newt Gingrich, former Republican Speaker of the House, [defended](http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2009/08/gingrich-defends-palins-death-panels-.html) Sarah Palin’s “Death Panel” remark and used the term “euthanasia.” Yes, but what did he say when he used the term? > [@](#): > > You are asking us to trust turning power over to the government, when there are clearly people in America who believe in establishing euthanasia, including selective standards. There ARE people who believe in euthanasia. Look at the efforts to pass assisted suicide laws. Why is that so horrible to mention? > [@](#): > > Senator Chuck Grassley (R-IA) [said](http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/12/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5237320.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody) at a town hall that "“You have every right to fear. You shouldn’t have counseling at the end of life, you should have done that 20 years before. Should not have a government run plan to decide when to pull the plug on grandma.” Inartfully phrased (or perhaps very artfully phrased!) but it goes to the issue of rationing care. That’s an absolutely valid issue to discuss, and the efforts by proponents of the plan to pretend that rationing decisions won’t be made is frankly an area in which THEY are being deceptive. Now, a neutral, fair commentator would have said “rationing care” instead of “pull the plug on grandma,” to be sure. But that just means that Grassley is not a neutral, fair commentator. He does not, however, invoke the Nazis. > [@](#): > > At what point will it take the GOP apologists on this board to admit that this isn’t just a few bad apples, this is a widespread attitude that has infected their party? Can any of your [tu quoques](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque) for the other side even come close to what I’ve just cited? > > I know that anecdotes are not data, but I’m going to add it here anyway. I work in a restaurant, so I interact with the public quite a bit. I overheard a group of four seniors talking about Obama, and using the words “Adolf Hitler” and “Soylent Green.” I’ve been working this job for over 3 years, and I NEVER heard any similar rhetoric about Bush as I passed by customer’s tables. Well, I heard plenty of similar rhetoric about Bush on this very board. Look up “Reeder” if you’ve forgotten. So what? Reeder didn’t speak for the majority of liberals. Those seniors don’t speak for the majority of conservatives. You want to tar and feather conservatives with the fringe elements of their group while distancing yourself from the fringe elements of your own. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/43 "2009-08-19T20:29:19Z")
> [@](#): > > “You are asking us to trust turning power over to the government, when there are clearly people in America who believe in establishing euthanasia, including selective standards.” > > There ARE people who believe in euthanasia. Look at the efforts to pass assisted suicide laws. Why is that so horrible to mention? Because its a double stretch. First, it stretches “end of life” counseling as envisioned to be an involuntary imposition. The only thing in the bill is the willingness to pay for the counseling if the subject/patient so chooses. Period. Full stop. So the first stretch is to claim that it is involuntary and imposed from without. By a government to whom such power has been “handed over”. The second stretch is that a reluctance to accept mechanical sustainment in a hopeless situation amounts to “suicide”, and then from there to suggest an involuntary imposition of euthanasia. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/44 "2009-08-19T20:31:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …Well, I heard plenty of similar rhetoric about Bush on this very board… He got it the old fashioned way, he earned it. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/45 "2009-08-19T20:31:41Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > You make a _very_ superficial comparison here. That’s your opinion. I don’t agree with it. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/46 "2009-08-19T20:32:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > He got it the old fashioned way, he earned it. See, there’s the sour grapes right there… ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/47 "2009-08-19T20:43:43Z")
As others have been saying, these are tactics that have been in wide use by the left for years, dating back as far as the Vietnam war, and evidenced most recently by the way conservative speakers are threatened and/or drowned out when appearing on college campuses. Gay rights is another area where anger, outrage and disruption are frequently visited upon anyone with an anti-gay or anti-gay-marriage point of view. Somehow I doubt, **Drain Bead** , that you have felt any of these to be a reflection upon you as a person or a liberal, or upon liberalism as an ideology. As far as what this bodes for the future, I have no idea. IMO, the right has been too complacent and too apathetic for too long and this has allowed too much of the country to be pushed leftward, as is evinced by the increasing acceptance of and promotion of what I regard as socialism. ISTM the question is whether the right is becoming sufficiently aroused in the main to begin fighting back and fighting fire with fire, or whether the health issue is a singular hotspot, with the right returning to apathy and complacency once the health issue is at least temporarily settled. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/48 "2009-08-19T21:15:30Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > I posted this in a Pit thread, but I think I’ll actually get a response if I post it here. > > It seems like every day, there’s some sort of brouhaha about someone doing something idiotic at a Town Hall. Most of the conservatives on the board are quick to distance themselves from the actions of people who would, for example, scream “Heil Hitler” at an Israeli and then boo-hoo at him when he got upset. It seems like most conservatives on the boards consider these people to be outliers, and that the majority of the party is not made up of people who would act this way. Why are you labelling them conservative in the first place? The US has plenty of political groupings that aren’t the Democrats or the Republicans. Are you trying to damn by association? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/49 "2009-08-19T21:16:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I will grant this is an invocation of Nazism. You’ve actually ceded quite a lot here. When Michael Steel, the nominal chairman of the Republican Party, called Limbaugh’s rhetoric “incendiary” and “ugly” he later telephoned him with an [apology](http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/02/gop.steele.limbaugh/). That incident demonstrates a lot of influence on Limbaugh’s part on the GOP. Why would a party leader lose face with an apology unless he felt like it was neccesary? > [@](#): > > No, no. You can’t jump off the bandwagon that quickly. You cannot equate actual use of Nazi words or images – a legitimately condemned tactic – with “trying to evoke the same kind of blind fear and hatred.” Sorry. That’s cheating. You’re being deliberately obtuse here, and I think you know it. Unless you’re the type of person who can look at a [pointillist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointillist) painting and say “it’s just a bunch of dots!” It’s kind of like how Bush kept using “9/11” and “Saddam Hussein” together in speeches when he made his case to invade Iraq. The natural human tendency is to fill in the dots and believe that Iraq had something to do with 9/11. You can’t paint a picture that most people will interpret as a face and then fall back on the “it’s just dots!” excuse. The GOP knows what picture they are painting, and I’m not going to buy their playing dumb and acting _shocked_ that people are drawing these conclusions from their statements. > [@](#): > > Yes, but what did he say when he used the term? > > There ARE people who believe in euthanasia. Look at the efforts to pass assisted suicide laws. Why is that so horrible to mention? Because, when the average listener who frequents the Right Wing noise machine is going to take all these statements in about “euthanasia” and “pulling the plug on grandma” and interpret it as an official policy of murder. > [@](#): > > Inartfully phrased (or perhaps very artfully phrased!) but it goes to the issue of rationing care. That’s an absolutely valid issue to discuss, and the efforts by proponents of the plan to pretend that rationing decisions won’t be made is frankly an area in which THEY are being deceptive. Now, a neutral, fair commentator would have said “rationing care” instead of “pull the plug on grandma,” to be sure. But that just means that Grassley is not a neutral, fair commentator. He does not, however, invoke the Nazis. Inflammatory, highly misleading rhetoric doesn’t have to use the word “Hitler” or “Nazi” to be worthy of condemnation. > [@](#): > > Well, I heard plenty of similar rhetoric about Bush on this very board. Look up “Reeder” if you’ve forgotten. So what? Reeder didn’t speak for the majority of liberals. Those seniors don’t speak for the majority of conservatives. > > You want to tar and feather conservatives with the fringe elements of their group while distancing yourself from the fringe elements of your own. If Barack Obama or Harry Reid made a negative remark about Michael Moore or Cindy Sheehan, do you think he’d ever in a million years feel the need to apologize for it? The DNC leadership is not beholden to the crazies (for the record, I don’t think Moore is all that crazy, but he’s the closest thing to Limbaugh the left has so I’m using him in my analogy). The GOP however, is. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/50 "2009-08-19T21:25:59Z")
I believe that the presence of TV camera’s has a slight downside. The folks going to the town hall meetings are those who are more interested and/or emotionally bound to the topic, so they are more likely to let their passions carry them away (as well as being slightly more susceptible to rhetoric aimed at manipulating emotions). Also, the more coverage we get, the more attention [del]whores[/del] seekers are gonna show up as well. (I suspect the guy who showed up open-carrying may fall into this category.) The calm and reasoned dissenters don’t make for interesting news anyway. “Now we turn to Natalie, who is reporting live from the Elm Street High School, where Congressman O’Toole is hosting a Health Care Town Hall for his district. Natalie?” “Hi, Bob. That’s right. Congressman O’Toole met with tens of his constituents tonight, where he tried to put to rest any fears the attendees may have about HR-sumthinsumthin. At one point, I believe I saw a finger pointed sternly and with authority, but tempers soon cooled. The meeting broke up about ten o’clock, however, when the donuts and coffee ran out. Back to you, Bob.” ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/51 "2009-08-19T22:07:45Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > I don’t know how to prove to you that it was ANSWER. I do know it was at a demonstration put on by ANSWER, but I didn’t personally interview the people. See, there’s your problem. A demonstration put on by ANSWER does not necessarily mean that everyone participating in it is a member of ANSWER, nor does it mean that the positions they espouse are endorsed by ANSWER. And I speak from personal experience on this one, as the ISO (the socialist organization I belonged to in the States) had sharp disagreements with ANSWER on a lot of subjects, yet we marched in the demonstrations they organized because they were some of the major anti-war activity occurring not just in DC, but nationally. The point of those demonstrations were to rally liberal and far left anti-war forces around a clear and limited set of points of unity (primarily, ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan) with no efforts to exclude based on political disagreements among organizations. Again, this does _not_ mean uncritical endorsement of all political positions expressed within the demonstration. You therefore cannot broadly tar the anti-war left (or even ANSWER specifically) simply because one section of a demonstration expresses a political stance you find profoundly distasteful, unless you have concrete proof that the political stance is embraced and endorsed by the organizers. Having worked with ANSWER and the ISO to build such demonstrations, I know for a fact you will never have such proof because it simply does not exist. Go ahead and say what you feel about that particular slogan, but don’t slam the entire anti-war left because of it. ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/52 "2009-08-19T22:35:07Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Hmmm…I didn’t catch anything in there referring to Clinton as Hitler. It alleged he was a criminal, yes…but that’s not quite on the same level. Ferchristsake, calling Clinton Hitler was popular enough among rightards that the phrase self-completes on Google. Here: [Google](http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=clinton+hitler&aq=1s&aqi=g1g-s1g1&fp=e7e374c314de6a77). Right after “Clinton Hitlist”. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/53 "2009-08-20T01:18:00Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > The calm and reasoned dissenters don’t make for interesting news anyway. > > “Now we turn to Natalie, who is reporting live from the Elm Street High School, where Congressman O’Toole is hosting a Health Care Town Hall for his district. Natalie?” > > “Hi, Bob. That’s right. Congressman O’Toole met with tens of his constituents tonight, where he tried to put to rest any fears the attendees may have about HR-sumthinsumthin. At one point, I believe I saw a finger pointed sternly and with authority, but tempers soon cooled. The meeting broke up about ten o’clock, however, when the donuts and coffee ran out. Back to you, Bob.” I heard a news story today talking about one congressman’s latest town hall went smoothly and without rancor. I’d tell you who he was, but I fell asleep. Too bad, since I was driving. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/54 "2009-08-20T12:22:26Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > If Barack Obama or Harry Reid made a negative remark about Michael Moore or Cindy Sheehan, do you think he’d ever in a million years feel the need to apologize for it? Well, there was that incident where Dick Durbin compared Gitmo to the Nazi death camps, and he apologized for it - [sort of](http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t36020.html) > [@](#): > > The DNC leadership is not beholden to the crazies (for the record, I don’t think Moore is all that crazy, but he’s the closest thing to Limbaugh the left has so I’m using him in my analogy). The GOP however, is. Moore compared the Patriot Act to _Mein Kampf_, as reported in the latest issue of Newsweek. Other Dems compared the Contract with America with the Third Reich. So when Moore does it, you don’t believe it is all that crazy. Imagine that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/55 "2009-08-20T14:08:57Z")
The media, understandably, concentrate on the nutcases in their coverage of the Town Hall Debates; it makes good television. Fortunately, as the polls bear out, most Americans know this isn’t the whole picture, or even a great part of it. Some real concerns are being expressed at these debates and cogent points made against the Dems’ health plans. Real democracy in action, and of course those in power (and their supporters) don’t like it one little bit. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/56 "2009-08-20T14:27:05Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Some real concerns are being expressed at these debates and cogent points made against the Dems’ health plans. Like? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/57 "2009-08-20T14:39:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > As others have been saying, these are tactics that have been in wide use by the left for years, dating back as far as the Vietnam war …the nerve of those kids, getting rude when protesting being drafted into a pointless war that killed a few millions people. I am sure a politely-worded note to the president would have been sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/58 "2009-08-20T14:55:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > …the nerve of those kids, getting rude when protesting being drafted into a pointless war that killed a few millions people. I am sure a politely-worded note to the president would have been sufficient. So, you don’t see a qualitative difference between protesting a war and hanging the president in effigy and calling him a baby-killer? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/59 "2009-08-20T15:01:40Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Like? Cost, reduced availability thru increased demand, a larger role for government in day-to-day life, a history of other taxpayer-funded health care programs exceeding their estimates. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945/60 "2009-08-20T15:03:34Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > …the nerve of those kids, getting rude when protesting being drafted into a pointless war that killed a few millions people. I am sure a politely-worded note to the president would have been sufficient. The nerve of those old people, getting rude when protesting being drafted into paying for a pointless health care plan that will cost hundreds of billions. I am sure a politely-worded note to the president would be sufficient. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-what-price-victory/506945.md?page=4)