# At which point do we become Americans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 23, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460 "2010-05-23T15:18:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/21 "2010-05-24T03:29:03Z")
Another one: Three guys get captured by cannibals. The cannibal leader says, “I’ll grant you one request, then we’ll eat your body and make your skin into a canoe.” The Britishman says, “I’d love to hear ‘God Save the Queen’ one last time before I die.” “Your wish is granted,” the leader replies. The cannibals form a choir, practice for a month, and then do a perfect rendition of “God Save the Queen.” With tears in his eyes, the Britishman is led away. The second man is French, and he says, “Before I die, I would like to taste French wine one last time.” “No problem,” the leader says. After getting the instructions off the Internet, the cannibals build a grape press and make a perfect bottle of French Bordeaux. After drinking the bottle, the Frenchman stumbles into the cannibals’ kitchen. The last man is American. He says, “Just give me a fork.” The Leader is puzzled at his request, but the tribe melts down a few trinkets, creates a mold, and provides the American with a fork. The American takes the fork and stabs himself all over his body, and says, “Fuck you and fuck your damn canoe.” ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/22 "2010-05-24T05:18:51Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > It means the trappings of “being American” isn’t as American as being a quasi-racist jerk. Ah, OK. I get it. ---
**Author:** ![lshaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e36b37/32.png) [@lshaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lshaw)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/23 "2010-05-24T10:45:09Z")
> [@turner](#): > > At which point do we become Americans? > [@hougaswd](#): > > My take: the point is, it doesn’t matter what you do, what’s important is how you look. Not Caucasian, you’re going to struggle. So true. I think you feel more convincingly American when others see you as a “real” American, as well. And how you look on the outside can make all the difference. I’m a first generation Asian American born here, but I’m still floating between here and there. It’s a common sentiment shared by many other first generation Asian Americans I know. Don’t get me wrong, on the inside, I am culturally American - I identify as American and with American life in that I was born and raised here, consider English my native language, and can comfortably navigate through everyday life here. Nevertheless, I don’t look like what is typically conceived to be the “All American”. Growing up, I’ve had people make me feel as if I couldn’t be American because of how I looked… and I’m not even talking about malicious remarks telling me to “go back to China”. No, it is often times more innocent and subconscious than that. Even when my own mother refers to an American, she is talking about a Caucasian, not someone who looks Asian on the outside like me. > [@even\_sven](#): > > In California, most people I know beyond the second generation strongly identified as Americans and had at most a symbolic bond with any homeland. > > America is a pretty exceptional place, because you can do that. I could live in China for decades and never be considered Chinese. But all you have to do to become American is move there and decide you believe in the place. Interesting. What is this “symbolic bond” you are talking about? For me, whenever I visit Taiwan, I would feel a certain irrational kinship to the place and the people, because I would finally look like the majority and not the minority. At first I’d be like, I’m coming here and these are my roots and my people. But I soon realized that these are not “my people”. This is a country like any other foreign country I’ve been to, with its own set of rules and regulations. Ways of doing things and going about everyday life that I may or may not be privy to because I wasn’t born there and didn’t spend enough of my childhood growing up there. At times, I’ve found myself having trouble keeping up with the most current slang, not getting some of the cultural references, the business practices, and the politics that people have learned since infancy. And even though you look Asian like the people on the streets and in the mainstream media there, you stand out just as much as you did in America! So if you don’t have a strong sense of self, it can be very confusing when you are floating somewhere in between… somewhat, but not completely embraced by either side. Neither here, nor there… Anyway, I don’t think becoming American is as easy as just coming here or even knowing the language and feeling American deep inside, but I guess it can and does happen… eventually. Several generations down the line maybe. Most of my 3rd+ generation Asian American friends don’t really suffer from the sense of "floating”. They have lost all of their cultural ties (can’t speak the language, barely any knowledge of the culture, rarely go to country of origin if at all, no relatives or friends there, etc). Even if people make them feel like they can’t be a “real” American, where else can they turn to? It’s the only life they know. Is that what it means to become fully “Americanized”? Hmm. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/24 "2010-05-24T13:16:37Z")
I was at the clamshack yesterday and this Canadian tourist was yelling in French at the soda machine. We just looked on because none of us speak French. They come down to NH every summer and do their best to stick out with their odd clothes and always speaking French very loudly at us and leaving inferior tips. So some guy says, Speak English if you need help. So the lady goes from her French to saying, The F-ing machine won’t take my f-ing change. So the guy says our soda machines don’t take foreign currency and she huffed off swearing in english. I guess it takes a while before you want to fit in? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/25 "2010-05-24T13:45:25Z")
A person becomes an American in his heart when he decides to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/26 "2010-05-24T15:09:06Z")
> [@turner](#): > > Why do you think that hasn’t happened in the US and when, if ever, do you think it will start? Why do you think it HASN’T happened? Certainly not everyone here identifies solely as “US-grade American” but “old-country” identification certainly does NOT apply to everyone. I’m a white dude, so I reckon the large majority of my encestry hails from Western Yurp, but I can’t be any more specific than that. With the exception of a single individual 150 years ago, my blood has been on this continent for over 300 years. If I were to pick an “old country” it would just be an arbitrary pick from England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Germany, Russia or France. I could just as easily call myself a Native American (no idea which tribe, though) or Jewish cause there’s some of them in me as well. And even if I DID pick a heritage, I have no mental connection with anyplace but the USA. I’m a 'merkin. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/27 "2010-05-24T18:31:32Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > I was at the clamshack yesterday and this Canadian tourist was yelling in French at the soda machine. We just looked on because none of us speak French. They come down to NH every summer and do their best to stick out with their odd clothes and always speaking French very loudly at us and leaving inferior tips. Soooo… it bothers you that people speak a non-English language when they’re not even talking to you, or even to anyone? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/28 "2010-05-24T19:08:32Z")
> [@turner](#): > > However, as demonstrated in the thread mentioned in the OP, people identify their ethnicity as something else whereas a German would say, German, an Italian, Italian, etc. How many generations need to pass before we just plain forget about where our people came from? A German would just say German if they were just German. If they had parents, grandparents or probably even great-grandparents from elsewhere then they’d mention that in a thread asking what their ethnic origins are. It’s just that Germany is more homogeneous than the US (though it does have significant immigrant populations, though for obvious reasons not many go back more than a couple of generations). > [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Soooo… it bothers you that people speak a non-English language when they’re not even talking to you, or even to anyone? He said they were speaking French ‘at him,’ not to each other. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/29 "2010-05-24T19:28:04Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > He said they were speaking French ‘at him,’ not to each other. She, and that’s not the way I read it. > [@Perciful](#): > > I was at the clamshack yesterday and this Canadian tourist was yelling in French at the soda machine. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/30 "2010-05-24T19:32:11Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > She, and not the way I read it. Maybe you missed this bit? > [@](#): > > They come down to NH every summer and do their best to stick out with their odd clothes and always speaking French very loudly at us and leaving inferior tips. Mind you, to me that just sounds like typical tourist behaviour (Brits abroad certainly do that). But if you know that it’s very likely that the person can speak adequate English (are there many French Canadians who can’t speak English?) then it would be annoying if they insisted on speaking French to you in an English-speaking country. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/31 "2010-05-24T21:59:30Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Soooo… it bothers you that people speak a non-English language when they’re not even talking to you, or even to anyone? She obviously wanted/ needed assistance but we couldn’t understand her. Finally a man said, speak english and she did. The soda machine only takes american coins. The tourists like to speak foreign when they can speak and swear in perfect english. It was pretty funny but I guess you had to be there. This is a big tourist trap in the summer and it just strikes me that people are proud of their heritage wherever they go. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/32 "2010-05-24T22:15:53Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > She obviously wanted/ needed assistance but we couldn’t understand her. Finally a man said, speak english and she did. The soda machine only takes american coins. The tourists like to speak foreign when they can speak and swear in perfect english. It was pretty funny but I guess you had to be there. Heh. Heh. Furriners. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/33 "2010-05-25T01:10:04Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Maybe you missed this bit? **Perciful** started getting angry at that woman based on her basically swearing at the vending machine in French (which is something you can do in Klingon as far as I’m concerned), not to mention making negative assumptions about her. (Weird clothes? Now that’s one I’ve never heard.) Her comment didn’t have much to do with the thread subject, for that matter: it’s “when do minorities become ‘American’?” not “when will tourists start making efforts not to stand out in the crowd?”. > [@](#): > > Mind you, to me that just sounds like typical tourist behaviour (Brits abroad certainly do that). You mean stand out in the crowd or make no effort to speak the local language? I try to do my best to communicate in the local language, even if I know only a few words, but when you’re from a foreign culture it’s possible that you’ll stick out. > [@](#): > > But if you know that it’s very likely that the person can speak adequate English (are there many French Canadians who can’t speak English?) The woman in **Perciful** ’s example apparently did speak English, and spoke it with them when they ask her if she needed help. How many francophone Canadians do not speak English? Maybe half if we’re asking about being able to hold a conversation in English, but nearly everyone knows at least a few words of English. > [@Perciful](#): > > The tourists like to speak foreign when they can speak and swear in perfect english. So in the US we should always _swear_ in English? Oy vey! > [@](#): > > it just strikes me that people are proud of their heritage wherever they go. Many people are proud of their heritage, but I’m not seeing any evidence of this in your example. Just that tourists, especially the kind who visit tourist traps instead of more interesting stuff, are sometimes badly behaved. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/34 "2010-05-25T03:11:38Z")
> [@hougaswd](#): > > My guess is your family is fully American when nobody speaks the language of the old country any more. That’s silly. A family can be fully fluent in both English and the language of the “old country” if they really want to be. I know several Korean Americans who were born and bred in the States, identify as American, and are fluent in Korean as well. They want the same for their children. It shouldn’t have anything to do with your “American-ness.” ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/35 "2010-05-25T08:15:39Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > That’s silly. A family can be fully fluent in both English and the language of the “old country” if they really want to be. I know several Korean Americans who were born and bred in the States, identify as American, and are fluent in Korean as well. They want the same for their children. It shouldn’t have anything to do with your “American-ness.” Agreed. I think stuff like this is why people make jokes like, “What do you call someone who speaks one language–American.” ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/36 "2010-05-25T13:51:51Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > **Perciful** > > Many people are proud of their heritage, but I’m not seeing any evidence of this in your example. Just that tourists, especially the kind who visit tourist traps instead of more interesting stuff, are sometimes badly behaved. Bobs Clam Hut has the best clams on the Seacoast. Only the savy tourists know where the best fried clams are. Yessir. It wasn’t bad behavior as much as she was just putting on a show for us. She was getting just what she wanted. It was funny and I wish you could just been there. It was beautiful! A tourist that was dressed to scream tourist is screaming in French at an American soda machine. Then switching to English and swearing at it in English. Maybe she knew the whole time it only took American coins and just needed a little attention from the crowd? She probably laughed all the way back to her American car…:smack: ---
**Author:** ![dhkendall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@dhkendall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhkendall)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/37 "2010-05-25T14:21:28Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > A person becomes an American in his heart when he decides to do so. This. Both my wife and I have to go back 3 generations (great grandparents) to hit Europe, we both consider ourselves Canadian, but I like to mention at times that I have English, German, and Norwegian in me and every year during our city’s [multi-cultural festival](http://www.folklorama.ca/) (the oldest and biggest in N. America!) I like to visit the ones for my heritages at the very least. My wife usually speaks of her heritage as “My mom has Welsh in her”, “My great-grandfather came from England”, etc., not connecting it directly to her. Our children on the other hand have 7 different nationalities in them, I’ve never known them to consider themselves anything but Canadian. One time my daughter’s school sent home with her a homework assignment where she was to write about her ethnicity and any celebrations, etc. in the house that’s part and parcel of it, during the segment where they learned about other cultures (and there seem to be a few first-generations in her class, maybe even some kids not born in Canada), had us puzzled for a bit as which nationality do you use? We don’t really have any traditions back to any old country, and “the old country” doesn’t even have any traditions (I mean, how do _you_ show British heritage anyways?). I think we had her scribble a sentence or two about her ethnic makeup (well, at least some of the more major parts of her 7 nationalities) and that was about it. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/38 "2010-05-25T14:25:10Z")
It’s when you buy that being American is more important than being human. “It ain’t where you’re from, it’s where you are at.” Ian Brown circa 1989 ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/39 "2010-05-25T14:36:17Z")
I’ll settle this once and for all: You can only claim to be an American if your family fought in the Revolutionary War, your background is WASP, and you are from a white collar family. Thank me later. 😉 \*for the humor impaired: this is a joke. Although I do meet all of those criteria… I think it all depends on how much of your childhood was spent here and also how you self-identify. Kids of immigrants (either born here or brought here prior to HS age) seem to assimilate easiest–the language and community standards are picked up more quickly by kids. For the rest, I would imagine the language barrier to be a great obstacle, but here is where self-identity comes in. I’ve known several first generation immigrants who spoke only broken English and dressed more in keeping with their country of origin, but considered themselves Americans and were proud to say so (as indeed they were). I’ve known immigrants who speak English very well, dress to fit into any executive level American function and yet feel like outsiders. Bottom line: it seems to be up to the individual. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460/40 "2010-05-25T14:46:34Z")
> [@dhkendall](#): > > T > > We don’t really have any traditions back to any old country, and “the old country” doesn’t even have any traditions (I mean, how do _you_ show British heritage anyways?). I think we had her scribble a sentence or two about her ethnic makeup (well, at least some of the more major parts of her 7 nationalities) and that was about it. Yep, same here. When magazines etc natter on about making your Christmas one in which you celebrate your “heritage”, I’m a bit flummoxed. I supposed I could Tiny Tim the house to death etc, but I have no funky, interesting “heritage”. I have Brit, Scots, Scots-Irish heritage. Maybe should start a family feud… or learn to play the fiddle. Maybe make moonshine? My family came here in the late 1600s (dad’s) and early 1700s (mom’s). Dad’s side settled in Rhode Island and Mass., mom’s in Virginia and Kentucky. Dad’s were Yankee Episcopalians, mom’s were Southern Presbyterians. All of them fought in the Revolutionary War, most in the Civil War for the North, but I have a few ancestors who were small farmer who did own slaves. We’ve just been here a long time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/at-which-point-do-we-become-americans/540460.md?page=3)