# Atheism and Agnosticism are not Mutually Exclusive. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487 "2010-02-10T22:48:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Ayn\_Randy\_Savage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3e96dc/32.png) [@Ayn\_Randy\_Savage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ayn_Randy_Savage)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/501 "2013-04-18T19:18:41Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Saying “often” is a dead giveaway that there might be a problem with the definition. > Would a grad student in some other brane who did a physics experiment which created our universe (but who is blocked from it since we are inside a singularity from his perspective) be a god by your definition? Well that’s still a physics question, even if it is beyond physics as we know or understand. I’m talking about true metaphysics. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/502 "2013-04-18T19:19:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You might have more of the right of it than me, or I might not be expressing myself properly - but basically, I think that faith that admits of doubt is one thing, and faith that admits we can’t know is another, far less faithful, thing entirely. Even most doubting theists believe they’ll know when they die, for instance. But you might be right about most Deists, I’m just going by my experiences with people who claim to be such - it’s entirely a reasoned approach on their part, not a faith-based one. I can’t say much about how people with faith think, having none myself. Deists seem to me to be people with a desire for the universe to have a meaning. That it the unreasoned part. But then they look around, see no obvious evidence of any gods, and so make the cause the Universe or something which never interacts with us. That’s the reasoned part - reasoned because it does not contradict any facts. How much faith is involved is beyond me. I personally have no problem with the universe and life having no meaning, so deism does not appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Ayn\_Randy\_Savage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3e96dc/32.png) [@Ayn\_Randy\_Savage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ayn_Randy_Savage)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/503 "2013-04-18T19:20:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > [You don’t say](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=465433) :dubious: > > Tell me, what does it mean _now_, to atheists. > And remind me, is it only an etymological fallacy if _I_ use it? > > I would argue that it _very much does_ prevent you from having such belief. If you doubt, you don’t have faith. > > And Deists, IME, like the intellectual idea of deity, but they don’t have _faith_ in such an entity. If you say “it’s etymology is X, therefore it means X” you’re making the fallacy. I’m not saying that. I’m just explaining why appealing to etymology doesn’t work even if you think appealing to etymology isn’t fallacious. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/504 "2013-04-18T22:31:03Z")
I’m an atheist and I agree that defining “atheist” to include babies and agnostics isn’t very helpful, and isn’t how the word is typically used by theists or atheists except when it scores them a rhetorical point to do so. Of course, in most cases it doesn’t come up and one definition is as good as another. But lets be clear that not having an opinion (or the capacity to form an opinion) on the existence of a god is a distinguishable phenomenon from having the opinion that gods do not exist. Everyone who has ever self-identified as an atheist has been part of the latter phenomenon. The same is true of almost everyone who has ever been referred to as an atheist. In fact, I’m pretty sure that I have never in my entire life heard someone with no opinion on the existence of gods referred to as an atheist _except when the topic of discussion is the definition of “atheist” or some related purely rhetorical point._ Also, note that knowledge is not identical with certainty; belief is not identical with certainty; lack of opinion is not identical with uncertainty; and positing something or “holding a positive position” about something is not the same as being positive _about_ something. ---
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/505 "2013-04-19T16:03:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Agnosticism should be closer to the original definition. An agnostic believes that it is **not possible** to know whether or not god exists. It’s about epistemology - what we can know. Who says that is the original definition? > **[Mathew Sn Huxley » Internet Infidels](https://infidels.org/library/modern/mathew-sn-huxley/)** > > More on Huxley and the Definition of Agnosticism mathew \[Traducción al Español / Spanish translation \]   Huxley describes how he came to originate the term “agnostic” as follows: When I reached intellectual maturity, and began to ask myself... That is the definition I encountered in grade school. I thought about it for weeks. I decided it was stupid. Agnosticism is not a belief it is merely an admission of ignorance. Believing it is impossible to know something when we can’t even get out of the solar system and the universe is billions of light years in diameter is absurd. What if god (of some kind) has been hanging out in the Andromeda galaxy for the last 5,000 years? What if She zips around the galaxy at FTL for kicks? Atheists seem to be mostly anti-religion enthusiasts, at least the vocal ones, and expect everyone to give a damn about religion as much as they do. I am a Transcendental Agnostic. That is when I am not being an Apatheist. I presume that if there is a god S/He has a lower opinion of religion than I do and pays no attention to it. But what is the definition of BELIEF? The dictionary definitions are kind of dumb. Like what is the difference between a proof and an absolute proof? That implies there are degrees of proof. There are degrees of probability not proof. My definition of believe is to accept something as true or false without sufficient evidence. Therefore belief is stupid by definition. But any human being that thinks for himself must decide for himself what is sufficient. That is always the problem, ain’t it? 😃 psik ---
**Author:** ![Ayn\_Randy\_Savage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3e96dc/32.png) [@Ayn\_Randy\_Savage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ayn_Randy_Savage)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/506 "2013-04-19T19:30:32Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > Who says that is the original definition? > Believing it is impossible to know something when we can’t even get out of the solar system and the universe is billions of light years in diameter is absurd. What if god (of some kind) has been hanging out in the Andromeda galaxy for the last 5,000 years? What if She zips around the galaxy at FTL for kicks? > psik That doesn’t make any sense. The whole point of God is that it transcends the world of phenomena. God’s existence, whether there is one or not, is incomprehensible to the human mind. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/507 "2013-04-19T19:34:06Z")
> [@Ayn\_Randy\_Savage](#): > > That doesn’t make any sense. The whole point of God is that it transcends the world of phenomena. God’s existence, whether there is one or not, is incomprehensible to the human mind. That is a convenient belief held by some sects, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Ayn\_Randy\_Savage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3e96dc/32.png) [@Ayn\_Randy\_Savage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ayn_Randy_Savage)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/508 "2013-06-03T21:12:52Z")
Whether it’s convenient or not is besides the point ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/509 "2013-06-03T21:23:42Z")
> [@Ayn\_Randy\_Savage](#): > > Whether it’s convenient or not is besides the point If they believe it _because_ it is convenient, it is _not_ beside the point-it is merely the final step in the “God of the Gaps” dance. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/510 "2013-06-04T06:56:33Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > I’m an agnostic, because god is supposed to be omnipotent. If a god existed, it could easily hide its existence and make the universe look as if it didn’t exist. And if a god did exist, there would be nothing it could do to prove it was literally omnipotent, only extremely powerful. It’s like counting to infinity. Given there is no evidence for god, only people who claim it exists…So the agnostic position is that people who made god up out of whole cloth might be right. This is exactly like believing in the FSM, the IPU, the Teapot. Why would you be agnostic about god and not leprechauns? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/511 "2013-06-04T08:41:24Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > I’m an atheist and I agree that defining “atheist” to include babies and agnostics isn’t very helpful, and isn’t how the word is typically used by theists or atheists except when it scores them a rhetorical point to do so. Of course, in most cases it doesn’t come up and one definition is as good as another. But lets be clear that not having an opinion (or the capacity to form an opinion) on the existence of a god is a distinguishable phenomenon from having the opinion that gods do not exist. Everyone who has ever self-identified as an atheist has been part of the latter phenomenon. The same is true of almost everyone who has ever been referred to as an atheist. In fact, I’m pretty sure that I have never in my entire life heard someone with no opinion on the existence of gods referred to as an atheist _except when the topic of discussion is the definition of “atheist” or some related purely rhetorical point._ > > Also, note that knowledge is not identical with certainty; belief is not identical with certainty; lack of opinion is not identical with uncertainty; and positing something or “holding a positive position” about something is not the same as being positive _about_ something. I agree. The problem is that those circumstances where the definition of atheism comes up, is usually in the context of someone claiming atheism is a faith, or an axiom or some other nonsense. It’s understandable that atheists wish to distance themselves from this. Personally I like to state that I feel the same way about God as I do about Godzilla. I’m not on the fence – I’m pretty sure it doesn’t exist. But I don’t claim to _know_ it doesn’t exist. New empirical data could convince me of its existence, and the same goes for self-consistent gods. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/512 "2013-06-04T09:11:14Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Personally I like to state that I feel the same way about God as I do about Godzilla. I am totally stealing this! ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/513 "2013-06-04T10:12:14Z")
Another Godzilla-fearing atheist 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/514 "2013-06-04T11:08:51Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I feel the same way about God as I do about Godzilla.. You’re angry at Godzilla? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/515 "2013-06-04T14:19:46Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Another Godzilla-fearing atheist 😃 Well of course, have you seen what he did to Tokyo? I’ve never seen god walk out of the ocean and trash a big city, but Godzilla? Oh yeah. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/516 "2013-06-04T18:21:59Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > You’re angry at Godzilla? [It looks like Godzilla, but due to international copy write laws, it’s not](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbSryqP0nu4). ---
**Author:** ![rockn\_roller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/fbc32d/32.png) [@rockn\_roller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rockn_roller)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/517 "2013-06-05T16:44:13Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Of course they’re not mutually exclusive, what a silly thing to claim. > Agnosticism (literally a-gnosis) is a position where one claims that proof/certainty is elusive/impossible. Atheism (literally a-theism) is a lack of theism. > > As such, one can be an agnostic theist and believe that certainty is impossible but that’s why they call it faith and not proof, or one can be an agnostic atheist and lack a belief in God and believe that it’s impossible to prove the matter one way or another as God is defined as being beyond the structure of proof and refutation itself. > > Of course, there is also a division between hard and soft atheists, but that’s neither here nor there. I couldn’t have said it better myself. I don’t know how much you know about Confucianism, but the philosophy (I consider it too worldly to fit the definition of a religion, and even the Chinese Communist Party considers it a philosophy and not a religion) makes it clear that while people should be skeptical of the existence of metaphysical beings, they should still be treated with respect. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/518 "2013-06-05T17:34:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If they believe it _because_ it is convenient, it is _not_ beside the point-it is merely the final step in the “God of the Gaps” dance. There’s _final_ step in the “God of the Gaps” dance? Hallelujah! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487/519 "2013-06-05T18:03:11Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > There’s _final_ step in the “God of the Gaps” dance? > > Hallelujah! Yep-it’s “You can’t find Him because you’re not _supposed_ to find Him!”, which allows them to smugly disregard all queries as to their god’s location. It may be a final step in the dance…but that final step is a stomp on the foot without explanation or apology. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-agnosticism-are-not-mutually-exclusive/528487.md?page=25)