# Atheism and the Concept of Time (?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283 "2009-10-01T21:35:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/21 "2009-10-02T14:06:50Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Ironically enough, I don’t really believe in time - I accept the B-Theory of time, which is a static universe. > > I don’t think that A Theorists could be categorized as believing that time created everything though… Is this “A” and “B” common nomenclature? I tend towards “B” myself, but I’ve never heard it called so (‘B’ for [Barbour](http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/barbour/barbour_index.html), perhaps?) And yes, time does not ‘create’ anything. Indeed, there is [no such thing as ‘creation’](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=526260) in modern physics, or modern science for that matter. There is only ‘something’ becoming ‘something _else_’. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/22 "2009-10-02T14:20:16Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Ironically enough, I don’t really believe in time - I accept the B-Theory of time, which is a static universe. > > I don’t think that A Theorists could be categorized as believing that time created everything though… Care to explain what these A and B theories are? I’m a bit lost here. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/23 "2009-10-02T14:41:13Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Is this “A” and “B” common nomenclature? I tend towards “B” myself, but I’ve never heard it called so (‘B’ for [Barbour](http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/barbour/barbour_index.html), perhaps?) > > And yes, time does not ‘create’ anything. Indeed, there is [no such thing as ‘creation’](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=526260) in modern physics, or modern science for that matter. There is only ‘something’ becoming ‘something _else_’. I’d say it is fairly common nomenclature - for philosophers. I haven’t read Barbour’s book, but I believe he discusses these ideas and he’s a B-Theorist, which are also known as Statists (versus dynamics), I believe. Physics can be reconciled with either the A or B theory, however, in order to reconcile with A, some new physics needs to be created (IIRC) and most physicists do not accept them. Supposedly William Lane Craig has ‘interpreted’ the theory of relativity to accommodate the A Theory, but I’m not going to spend $140 to figure out if he did. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/24 "2009-10-02T14:43:47Z")
> [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](#): > > Care to explain what these A and B theories are? I’m a bit lost here. Um…No, I won’t - it’s hard for me to describe and I feel as though I’m just getting the hang of it, so I think I would only confuse the issue. Here’s some links though: [Stanford’s Encyclopedia Entry](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/time/#TheBThe) [Block Time](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_time) ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/25 "2009-10-02T15:45:56Z")
Lee Smolin penned a nice article in Physics World about whether the universe is unique and whether time is ‘flowing’ or ‘static’. Unfotunately it requires registration/membeship, so [here](http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/whattime.html) is a briefer summary. Barbour’s work explores what the [Wheeler-DeWitt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%E2%80%93deWitt_equation) equation really _means_. It is effectively a quantum mechanical desciption of spacetime in which the _t_ variable has no ‘special status’: the universe is merely a four-dimensional object which simply _exists_. Figure that out! > [@Meatros](#): > > Supposedly William Lane Craig has ‘interpreted’ the theory of relativity to accommodate the A Theory, but I’m not going to spend $140 to figure out if he did. I wouldn’t bother spending 140 seconds, for _free_, working out what that guy says if [this bollocks](http://www.leaderu.com/truth/3truth11.html) is him at his most transparent. See [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11433006&postcount=40) for a brief response on my part to some of his ‘arguments’. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/26 "2009-10-02T16:05:39Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > I wouldn’t bother spending 140 seconds, for _free_, working out what that guy says if [this bollocks](http://www.leaderu.com/truth/3truth11.html) is him at his most transparent. See [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11433006&postcount=40) for a brief response on my part to some of his ‘arguments’. Same guy and yes, I find a lot of what he says…unsatisfactory…The trouble is, he’s probably the only philosophical contender for the A Theory. At least that I know of, so if you want to read the arguments for the A Theorists, you are going to be reading him… ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/27 "2009-10-02T19:12:01Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Um…No, I won’t - it’s hard for me to describe and I feel as though I’m just getting the hang of it, so I think I would only confuse the issue. > > Here’s some links though: > > [Stanford’s Encyclopedia Entry](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/time/#TheBThe) > > [Block Time](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_time) Well, I’m not sure I understood all that, but thanks for the links. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/28 "2009-10-02T19:25:30Z")
> [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](#): > > Well, I’m not sure I understood all that, but thanks for the links. No problem - I would also recommend reading a few books on it, which is just slightly past the point where I am in my understanding. [Real Time II](http://www.amazon.com/Real-Time-International-Library-Philosophy/dp/0415097819/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I31V37PVTXRLKN&colid=3M22WUS2W2ZRM), [Time](http://www.amazon.com/Time-Problems-Philosophy-Philip-Turetzky/dp/0415139481/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I21S9Q7Z5MSBI6&colid=3M22WUS2W2ZRM), and you should also check out [this blog post](http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2007/02/ontology-of-time.html) by Richard Carrier. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/29 "2009-10-03T00:29:34Z")
> [@MatthewGerlach](#): > > Also, if there is such a ‘religion’ which believes in this. This is what I got on it: > [@](#): > > John 8:58 > “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” > Revelation 1:8 > “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” > Revelation 21:6 > He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. > Revelation 22:13 > I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. It is more like God transcends time, instead of being time. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2009, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/30 "2009-10-03T10:30:36Z")
There is an all pervasive force within the universe. We have never ever seen,felt,heard or detected it in anyway directly. But we KNOW for sure that its there. We KNOW that the universe wouldn’t exist but for its existence. We KNOW that nothing can ever happen,change,evolve,live,die without its existence. I’m talking of course about the laws of physics and other sciences. But it does sound a hell of a lot like some sort of god doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2009, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/31 "2009-10-03T10:33:35Z")
Well, except for that whole ‘making testable predictions’ thing, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/32 "2009-10-03T15:37:20Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > No problem - I would also recommend reading a few books on it, which is just slightly past the point where I am in my understanding. [Real Time II](http://www.amazon.com/Real-Time-International-Library-Philosophy/dp/0415097819/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I31V37PVTXRLKN&colid=3M22WUS2W2ZRM), [Time](http://www.amazon.com/Time-Problems-Philosophy-Philip-Turetzky/dp/0415139481/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I21S9Q7Z5MSBI6&colid=3M22WUS2W2ZRM), and you should also check out [this blog post](http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2007/02/ontology-of-time.html) by Richard Carrier. Thanks for the suggestions, but I don’t think I’m continue on in this direction. It looks like it’s headed towards some heavy philosophy, and philosophy has never been my thing. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/33 "2009-10-03T19:56:21Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > There is an all pervasive force within the universe. > We have never ever seen,felt,heard or detected it in anyway directly. > > But we KNOW for sure that its there. > We KNOW that the universe wouldn’t exist but for its existence. > We KNOW that nothing can ever happen,change,evolve,live,die without its existence. > > I’m talking of course about the laws of physics and other sciences. > > But it does sound a hell of a lot like some sort of god doesn’t it? Exactly like it to me. I say, fuck it, let’s call it god. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/34 "2009-10-03T23:25:33Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > There is an all pervasive force within the universe. > We have never ever seen,felt,heard or detected it in anyway directly. > > But we KNOW for sure that its there. > We KNOW that the universe wouldn’t exist but for its existence. > We KNOW that nothing can ever happen,change,evolve,live,die without its existence. > > I’m talking of course about the laws of physics and other sciences. > > But it does sound a hell of a lot like some sort of god doesn’t it? But the christians, and other religions, have already claimed god and attributed to their god those attributes mentioned plus a _lot_ more, and made them inseparable. It’s a package. No fair picking out just the easy ones and calling them proof. No ark, no god. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/35 "2009-10-03T23:53:17Z")
Gods are things that people worship, pray to, and perhaps make sacrifices to. People behave towards their gods in these ways because they hope it will induce the gods to look upon them (the worshipers) more favorably, and make their lives (or afterlives) better in some way. I do not think that anybody believes that worshiping, praying to, or sacrificing to _time_ or _the laws of physics_ will affect time or those laws in any way whatsoever. There is no point in worshiping\*\* them, so consequently, it is nothing but empty verbiage to call either of them gods. ```auto * Or the Aristotelian Prime Mover, come to that, unless you tack some of the characteristics of the Judaeo-Christian-Muslim god onto it, as some followers of those religions try to do. ** Unless, I suppose, you really, really enjoy worshiping things, even though you know perfectly well you are not going to get anything out of it. Maybe some people are like that, but it is, at most, only a tiny fraction of what motivates actual religions. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/36 "2009-10-04T02:18:29Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Gods are things that people worship, pray to, and perhaps make sacrifices to. People behave towards their gods in these ways because they hope it will induce the gods to look upon them (the worshipers) more favorably, and make their lives (or afterlives) better in some way. I do not think that anybody believes that worshiping, praying to, or sacrificing to _time_ or _the laws of physics_ will affect time or those laws in any way whatsoever. There is no point in worshiping\*\* them, so consequently, it is nothing but empty verbiage to call either of them gods. > > ```auto > > * Or the Aristotelian Prime Mover, come to that, unless you tack some of the characteristics of the Judaeo-Christian-Muslim god onto it, as some followers of those religions try to do. > > ** Unless, I suppose, you really, really enjoy worshiping things, even though you know perfectly well you are not going to get anything out of it. Maybe some people are like that, but it is, at most, only a tiny fraction of what motivates actual religions. > > ``` Is that what a ‘god’ is? I thought god was just all and everything, simultaneously beautiful and terrible in that he just is. But, yeah, we gotta define him to discuss him. Makes it so hard to discuss it at all. I like the idea of math and science and the beauty of the entire universe and beyond being called ‘god’. It is just such a lovely shorthand for it all. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/37 "2009-10-04T02:36:47Z")
So does “pup”. And puppies are all warm and fuzzy, unlike the vengeful god. Would god pee all over himself if you rubbed his tummy? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/38 "2009-10-04T08:31:23Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > But the christians, and other religions, have already claimed god and attributed to their god those attributes mentioned plus a _lot_ more, and made them inseparable. It’s a package. No fair picking out just the easy ones and calling them proof. > No ark, no god. No, thats a strawman argument,just because certain religions or even individuals say any hypothetical god is like this or that it doesn’t mean that we have to restrict our definition to what, in an infinite universe is a physical possibility. Its like a bacterium defining an aeroplane and no one else being able to gainsay it. Personally I believe that the multiverse has existed in one form or other for ever. That if there is a physical super being its an “IT” not a he or she,that its totally alien in outlook and thinking,is not concerned with the Human race particulary . Though being presumably omniscient it knows all about us and transcends our concepts of good,evil,love etc. I’m not saying that as a cold hard fact cast in concrete but its one possibility if a god exists at all. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/39 "2009-10-04T12:18:50Z")
God is the big bang. That was the state of minimum entropy and the universe has been going downhill ever since. Therefore that was the state of perfection. It is my opinion that we are looking at time wrong, that time is logarithmic and the big bang took place at time minus infinity. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283/40 "2009-10-04T16:36:46Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > No, thats a strawman argument,just because certain religions or even individuals say any hypothetical god is like this or that it doesn’t mean that we have to restrict our definition to what, in an infinite universe is a physical possibility. > Its like a bacterium defining an aeroplane and no one else being able to gainsay it. My very first strawman, I think. I’m not sure how it is, but I’m proud of it anyway. 😛 Peace, mangeorge [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-and-the-concept-of-time/512283.md?page=3)