# Atheism does not equal communism and vise versa **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897 "2005-10-05T15:17:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/1 "2005-10-05T15:17:28Z")
As is often the case when discussing atheism versus religion, a predictable knee jerk response is to bring up the likes of Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, and Pol Pot as an example of murderous atheists. [(As was the case in this thread)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=337114) Instead of hi-jacking the above thread completely, I thought perhaps this could be a topic for discussion on its own thread. Hopefully we can settle this argument once and for all (being optimistic here). What follows is my opinion on the subject. Personally I couldn’t confirm if Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, or Pol Pot were atheists. It is assumed they were atheists because they were communists, and everyone knows a communist is an atheist…or do we? If you study the works of Karl Marx and Fredrick Engels, you will find that there is no declaration of communism being an atheist movement. There is simply no philosophical/theological discussion, thought, or opinion whether there is a God or not. Rather, it seems to me they were simply looking at religion, and specifically Christianity, on a more clinical and historical sense. > [@Communist Manifesto](#): > > When the ancient world was in its last throes, the ancient religions were overcome by Christianity. When Christian ideas succumbed in the eighteenth century to rationalist ideas, feudal society fought its death battle with the then revolutionary bourgeoisie. The ideas of religious liberty and freedom of conscience merely gave expression to the sway of free competition within the domain of knowledge. > “Undoubtedly,” it will be said, “religious, moral, philosophical, and juridicial ideas have been modified in the course of historical development. But religion, morality, philosophy, political science, and law, constantly survived this change.” > “There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that are common to all states of society. But communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience.” > What does this accusation reduce itself to? The history of all past society has consisted in the development of class antagonisms, antagonisms that assumed different forms at different epochs. > But whatever form they may have taken, one fact is common to all past ages, viz., the exploitation of one part of society by the other. No wonder, then, that the social consciousness of past ages, despite all the multiplicity and variety it displays, moves within certain common forms, or general ideas, which cannot completely vanish except with the total disappearance of class antagonisms. Now that is interesting. Indeed if you read the passage closely, it could be read as if they are saying there will be no religion in a communist government. If you put such a spin on those words, then it starts to look similar to the first amendment of the US constitution. More to the point though, if you read the [Communist Manifesto](http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/), you’ll find Marx and Engels spend a miniscule portion on the topic of religion. Except for a few additional words here and there where the Pope is lumped with the Tsar as an oppressor, the above five paragraphs is all that is given to the question of religion in the communist manifesto. To claim from this that atheism is the underlying message of communism is a gross exaggeration. The manifesto and other writings by Marx and Engels is frankly a tedious read on workers rights and the equalization of property to the state for the benefit of the workers. The rejection of religion is a rejection of another branch of the oppressors of the proletariat, and they spend less than 1% of the manifesto on this. There is absolutely no mention of atheism or the declaration there of. Just to drive this point home, the following are the first ten steps once a communist government establishes itself in a given nation: > [@Communist Manifesto](#): > > 1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. > 2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. > 3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance. > 4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. > 5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. > 6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state. > 7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. > 8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. > 9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. > 10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. There is nothing regarding religion or the abolition there of in the first 10 steps of a new communist nation. (I confess to even agreeing to item 10 to a certain extent.) The thing about Marx and Engel’s works, if you read through it, is that they did have some interesting ideas, ideas that spread to the Western democracies in America and Europe. Workers rights movements lead to unions and ultimately better working conditions and wages for millions of people. Not that I am pro-union today, but I could imagine being pro-union back at the turn of the century when workers truly were exploited. Women’s suffrage movement was also influenced by the communist doctrines. Indeed, I find it comical how Marx and Engels actually speak of “Free Love”. Sounds almost like they were hippies, and this in a document published in 1848! The point is, I think we can safely say that the communist Utopia as imagined by Marx and Engels was probably very different from the communist nations that eventually appeared. Neither Marx nor Engels lived to see the birth of the Soviet Union, wonder what they would have thought of Stalin? Which brings us to the three notorious despots, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot. What happened? How could these megalomaniacs get to be so powerful? In my opinion, there was a major flaw in the communist ideology. Again, when you read the manifesto, once a nation becomes communist, they don’t allow for any other political opinion or thought. > [@Communist Manifesto](#): > > When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class; if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class. > In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all. It certainly sounds ideal and incredibly naïve. “Power” didn’t disappear, as was predicted, it _concentrated_. The prediction that communism would eventually lack “political character” made the need for “checks and balances” to be implemented in such a government redundant. Since there was no checks and balances designed in to the communist system of government, what eventually emerged, once the experiment came to fruit in the Soviet Union and elsewhere, was a concentration of power amongst a very few. It started to look a lot more like an absolute monarchy rather than a brotherhood of labourers. The problem with absolute monarchy, unless you’re the king, is that the state of the nation and the well being of the population is determined by the mental disposition of the ruler. Depending on your luck as a peasant, you could be living in terror under Ivan the Terrible or relative enlightenment under Elizabeth I. The power concentration found in the communist nation proved to allow for the same exact problem as was found in an absolute monarchy. Ironically, instead of the anticipated Utopia, communism just ended up replacing one set of oppressors with another. Let’s turn our focus on what was going on within these communist regimes, more specifically the Soviet Union. It is true that Stalin persecuted leaders of the Russian Orthodox Church. But his motives was not religious or “atheist” as the case may be, but purely political. Remember, when the communists took over, the Tsar and his family were executed together with other people classified as the Bourgeoisie (the oppressors), and as the manifesto teaches us, the church leaders were included under the category of “oppressors” of the proletariat. Well, there Stalin had his excuse to pursue what he probably felt was a real threat to his power. Simply put, the church had some sway over the Russian people, and it was a threat to Stalin’s rule in particular and the communist government in general. So, the religious leaders were persecuted. It would be wrong to assume that religion in the Soviet Union disappeared completely, (the re-emergence of the ROC after the collapse of the Soviet Union shows it was alive and well), what was deconstructed was official organized religion within the Soviet Union. Realistically, it wouldn’t be possible to stamp out individual religious sentiments. Although I’m sure they tried. With the elimination of the organized church, the Soviets started the indoctrination of the people. The Red Book replaced the Bible, and in a sense, the state, with the father figure images of Lenin and Stalin became a new sort of religion. And like religion, it was a brainwash where intolerance (and ignorance) of the capitalist west was taught and indoctrinated, especially in younger minds. Did Stalin murder a huge number of Soviet citizens? Yes, that is undeniable. Did he do it in the name of atheism? No, he did it in the name of communism. Was communism an atheist movement? No, it was a political movement, where abolition of organized religion was a minor part of the whole movement. Why does atheism seem to rise to the top of people’s conscience when communism is discussed or mentioned? Interesting question, which leads us to the next topic. Where did this image of the evil of communism and the emphasis of atheism in that mix come from in the West, especially the United States? I have an opinion on this as well. Allow me to elaborate. McCarthyism. Need I say more? Perhaps I should. The McCarthy witch-hunts of the 1950’s caused some considerable hysteria in the United States. In this climate, it gave the American religious leaders a soapbox to stand on. And they were quick to paint the red brush over atheism and with it, secularism. It is no coincidence that “under God” was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954, or the words “In God We Trust” added to paper money in 1955, and those same words replaced the “E Pluribus Unum” as the national motto in 1956. The McCarthy hunt for “Godless communists” created a strong religious affirmation and started an undercurrent of Christian fundamentalism in a nation that had been mostly secular, at least at the government level. Basically, you could blame communism for the US government becoming religious. You’d think the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1990 would have had a re-emergence of secularism in the United States. Indeed, I think it did, especially during the Clinton presidency. Clinton’s re-election for a second term despite the Lewinsky scandal, was to me a clear sign that secularism was back on the rise in the US. That is, until the unfortunate events of 9/11, 2001. Needless to say, it was a field day for the religious right. The Godless Commies were gone, but here suddenly we have the re-emergence of Christianity’s most ancient historical enemy. To conclude, religion, or the lack there of, in the communist movement was actually only a very small aspect of the ideology. Religious indoctrination of the people was replaced with communist indoctrination. No freedom of thought, as would be required to be a free thinker. The cold war hysteria contributed to the exaggeration of communism being an atheist rather than a political movement and is also the cause for religious penetration into a government previously constitutionally free of religion. Okay, there you have my opinion, long winded as it is. Look forward to seeing some thoughts on this. Jack ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/2 "2005-10-05T15:40:00Z")
Atheism = Communism? I certainly hope not. I’m an atheist and a libertarian. I wouldn’t want to have to start wearing Che T-shirts… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/3 "2005-10-05T15:59:26Z")
You’re wrong on the vice versa. Marx was clearly atheist. You missed this because you’ve not read much Marx. He spelled this out in works other than the Manifesto. Please check out the Economic and Pholosophical Manuscripts of 1844, for one. Also check out Lenin, who was atheist in thought as well as deed. Likewise check out the behavior of nearly every Communist regime on the planet, all of which have been officially atheist and hostile to organized religion to varying degrees. I’ll not comment about the rest of your OP, since much of your premise is quite flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/4 "2005-10-05T16:00:57Z")
Uh… Maybe because Stalin outlawed religion? I don’t know about other communists, but generally atheism is pretty much the state religion. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/5 "2005-10-05T16:03:30Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > Uh… Maybe because Stalin outlawed religion? I don’t know about other communists, but generally atheism is pretty much the state religion. Not to start a whole other argument that’s been done _ad nauseum_, but atheism is most definitely **not** a religion - not in any way, shape, or form. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/6 "2005-10-05T16:09:22Z")
Here’s from Wikipedia on Marx’s _Religion is the opium for the People_ > [@](#): > > The foundation of irreligious criticism is: **Man makes religion, religion does not make man.** > > ``` > Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man — state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. > > Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. **Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.** > > **The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness.** To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo. > > Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and **fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true sun. Religion is only the illusory sun which revolves around man so long as he does not revolve around himself.** > > ``` These words by Marx don’t seem compatible with religion. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/7 "2005-10-05T16:11:05Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > You’re wrong on the vice versa. > > Marx was clearly atheist. You missed this because you’ve not read much Marx. He spelled this out in works other than the Manifesto. > > Please check out the Economic and Pholosophical Manuscripts of 1844, for one. > > Also check out Lenin, who was atheist in thought as well as deed. Likewise check out the behavior of nearly every Communist regime on the planet, all of which have been officially atheist and hostile to organized religion to varying degrees. > > I’ll not comment about the rest of your OP, since much of your premise is quite flawed. You need to read the OP again because the premise has nothing to do with whether Marx or Engels were atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/8 "2005-10-05T16:14:03Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Likewise check out the behavior of nearly every Communist regime on the planet, all of which have been officially atheist and hostile to organized religion to varying degrees. > > I’ll not comment about the rest of your OP, since much of your premise is quite flawed. I found the OP quite interesting, actually, and though there may be points of contention, I find your objection flawed because it inextricably links organized religion and theism. Communist states are interested in squishing or thoroughly co-opting (and then squishing) rival power bases (and organized religion certainly counts), not theism per se. Or can theism only exist within a framework of organized religion? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/9 "2005-10-05T16:17:03Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Or can theism only exist within a framework of organized religion? If it is to be a focus for that concentrated power that Communism is interested in repressing, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/10 "2005-10-05T16:18:50Z")
I completely agree with the OP. Communism is trotted out by religionists as their lone defense against the long history of intolerance, wars and atrocities which can be attributed to religion. It’s a specious defense, though, because Communism itself was a religion (just not a theistic one) and behaved accordingly. Citing Communism as an example of true secularism or honest atheism is completely spurious. Stalin, et al, did not kill people because they were motivated by atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/11 "2005-10-05T16:20:49Z")
Communism has always struck me as being as much a religion as Buddhism or Christianity. It has prophets (Marx, Lenin), minor prophets and scholars (various academics), schisms and factions (Maoists, Trotskyites), a promised paradise (the classless society where we will farm in the morning and philosophize in the evening), an eschatology (revolution and the class struggle), a devil (Capitalists), and even a God of sorts in the impersonal forces of history. It interprets history as being part of a grand scheme leading to an ultimate clash between good and evil. Like all religions it gives meaning to peoples lives by locating them within a larger meaningful universe. The so called atheism of communists doesn’t strike me as real atheism, but rather the contempt of any religion for those that don’t follow the One True Path. When people talk about the ills organized religion has visited upon society, someone’s always bound to bring up the fact that certain atheist philosophies like communism or extreme nationalism (fascism) are just as bad, if not worse. What these people don’t realize is that these philosophies are quasi-religions, and arise from the same place in the human psyche as all organized religion. That’s why I prefer to think of the baleful effects of non-empirical belief systems in general. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/12 "2005-10-05T16:27:45Z")
Another vote for Communism = religion; the Communists slaughtered and oppressed theists for the same reason Christians and so forth do; to eliminate rival religions. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s probably a duck; and communism looks a lot like religion. ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/13 "2005-10-05T17:09:08Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > You’re wrong on the vice versa. > > Marx was clearly atheist. You missed this because you’ve not read much Marx. He spelled this out in works other than the Manifesto. I never said he wasn’t an atheist. You missed this because you did not read my post. I used the Manifesto as an example because this was the document used in the establishment of the communist party, or movement. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Please check out the Economic and Pholosophical Manuscripts of 1844, for one. Again, I am not arguing whether Marx was or was not an atheist, only that the abolition of religion in communist ideology was only a very small part of the overall philosophy. But since you have brought up this piece of work, allow me to bring to your attention the following: > [@](#): > > Since the real existence of man and nature has become evident in practice, through sense experience, because man has thus become evident for man as the being of nature, and nature for man as the being of man, the question about an alien being, about a being above nature and man – a question which implies the admission of the unreality of nature and of man – has become impossible in practice. > **Atheism as the denial of this unreality, has no longer any meaning, for atheism is a negation of God, and postulates the existence of man through this negation; but socialism as socialism no longer stands in any need of such a mediation.** It proceeds from the theoretically and practically sensuous consciousness of man and of nature as the essence. **Socialism is man’s positive self-consciousness, no longer mediated through the abolition of religion, just as real life is man’s positive reality, no longer mediated through the abolition of private property, through communism.** > **Communism is the position as the negation of the negation, and is hence the actual phase necessary for the next stage of historical development in the process of human emancipation and rehabilitation.** Communism is the necessary form and the dynamic principle of the immediate future, but communism as such is not the goal of human development, the form of human society. **Emphasis mine** Don’t know about you, but it sounds to me Marx was rejecting atheism as well, and suggests that _communism_ replaces atheism. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Also check out Lenin, who was atheist in thought as well as deed. Again, had you bothered to read the OP, I haven’t made any claim that Lenin was not atheist. I should also point out that Lenin was not responsible for mass genocide either. Stalin was. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Likewise check out the behavior of nearly every Communist regime on the planet, all of which have been officially atheist and hostile to organized religion to varying degrees. Officially non-religious, yes, but so was the original constitution of the United States. Hostile to organized religion, yes, as pointed out in the OP as it was seen as a threat to the communist ruling party. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I’ll not comment about the rest of your OP, since much of your premise is quite flawed. Thanks for proving McCarthyism is still alive and well with this comment. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/14 "2005-10-05T17:18:26Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > Communism has always struck me as being as much a religion as Buddhism or Christianity. It has prophets (Marx, Lenin), minor prophets and scholars (various academics), schisms and factions (Maoists, Trotskyites), a promised paradise (the classless society where we will farm in the morning and philosophize in the evening), an eschatology (revolution and the class struggle), a devil (Capitalists), and even a God of sorts in the impersonal forces of history. It interprets history as being part of a grand scheme leading to an ultimate clash between good and evil. Like all religions it gives meaning to peoples lives by locating them within a larger meaningful universe. But under that analogy, radical environmentalism could be considered a religion. It has major and minor prophets, schisms and factions (are animals servants or higher life forms for being more natural?), a promised paradise (the Gaia balance where humans live in perfect tune to the environment around them), as eschatology (the promised Peak Oil collapse, Global Warming, etc.), a devil (Capitalists), and most definitely a God (the enivronment itself, and possibly animals as representations of God in natural form). It interprets history as a fall from the Garden of Eden (the pristine wilderness of the ‘noble savages’). And like all religions, it gives meaning to people’s lives by showing them why their lives are lacking meaning and purpose: they’ve been led astray by the ideals of civilization. And yet, [in this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=337140), some people roll their eyes at that contention when pushed forward by Michael Cricton. So what is the standard by which we call something a religion? Because most of the times I see the “remember that Communists are athiests!” canard drug out on this board, it’s in respone to atheists blaming all of the horrors of humanity upon religion. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/15 "2005-10-05T17:21:40Z")
I agree with the last couple of posters, and I’ve known some religious Communists over the years. But while the purges of Stalin _et al_ were not motivated specifically by atheism, the link between atheism and Communist governments historically is pretty clear. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/16 "2005-10-05T17:39:18Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I completely agree with the OP. Communism is trotted out by religionists as their lone defense against the long history of intolerance, wars and atrocities which can be attributed to religion. It’s a specious defense, though, because Communism itself was a religion (just not a theistic one) and behaved accordingly. Citing Communism as an example of true secularism or honest atheism is completely spurious. Stalin, et al, did not kill people because they were motivated by atheism. Actually, Stalin himself tied communism to atheism. in 1938, he wrote _Dialectical and Historical Materialism_, in which he outlined how Marxism compels a materialistic worldview. In fact, the first sentence in the essay is “Dialectical materialism is the world outlook of the Marxist-Leninist party.” He quoted Marx’s afterword from _Das Kapital_ as justification, and then wrote: > [@](#): > > When describing their materialism, Marx and Engels usually refer to Feuerbach as the philosopher who restored materialism to its rights. This, however, does not mean that the materialism of Marx and Engels is identical with Feuerbach’s materialism. As a matter of fact, Marx and Engels took from Feuerbach’s materialism its “inner kernel,” developed it into a scientific-philosophical theory of materialism and cast aside its idealistic and religious-ethical encumbrances. Thus, the outright rejection of religion and the embracing of atheism for the sake of communism. He cited the need for social revolution (and all its accompanying slaughter) by quoting from Marx’s _Selected Works_: > [@](#): > > It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness. At a certain stage of their development, the material productive forces of society come in conflict with the existing relations of production, or – what is but a legal expression for the same thing – with the property relations within which they have been at work hitherto. From forms of development of the productive forces these relations turn into their fetters. Then begins an epoch of social revolution. Communism and atheism are not the same thing, but then neither are theocracy and religion. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/17 "2005-10-05T17:41:32Z")
Here, by the way, is the text of _Dialectical and Historical Materialism_. Readers can decide for themselves whether Stalin believed materialism to be essential to communist goals and methods. [http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1938/09.htm](http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1938/09.htm) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/18 "2005-10-05T17:53:20Z")
Certainly Atheism does not equal communism. I doubt anyone but the most deluded would make that claim. Communism certainly attempts to co-opt all other sources of power, making the state the ultimate…and they are extremely jealous masters. To my mind communism and religion are two faces on the same coin…those that wish to break mans spirt and make bind him to something ‘better’ than man himself. The collective or heaven. Mystics of Muscle vs Mystics of Spirit and all that. The eternal struggle to destroy mans mind and all that. 😉 Anyway, I agree with those saying that Communism doesn’t equal atheism…its merely a bi-product. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/19 "2005-10-05T17:55:39Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Anyway, I agree with those saying that Communism doesn’t equal atheism…its merely a bi-product. Or prerequisite. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897/20 "2005-10-05T18:05:47Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Or prerequisite. In which direction? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-does-not-equal-communism-and-vise-versa/324897.md?page=2)