# Atheism is a religion! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 9, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276 "2010-02-09T15:12:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/101 "2010-02-10T19:25:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Agnosticism is simply the position that the answer can’t be currently known by the available evidence. > > Atheism is a lack of belief. > > Agnosticism is a position on what is knowable, atheism is a position of belief (or lack thereof). They are not mutually exclusive. One can be an atheist (or even a theist) and still think the answer isn’t actually knowable. > > The word agnosticism is so often used to designate weak atheism, though, that these distinctions are often lost in discussions. I’m actually starting to believe the show ‘Community’ was right. “Agnostic’s” are the lazy man’s “Atheist”. I always thought my brother, who’s like me, should call himself an agnostic, rather than atheist, because he never said ‘there’s no God’. Now I’m guessing it’s me that should change his Facebook status under “Beliefs”. I agree that there’s no reason for me to believe in a God. If there was a God, and I was able to find out about it’s existence, I would be more surprised than not. ---
**Author:** ![whorfin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@whorfin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whorfin)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/102 "2010-02-10T19:27:04Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > **Rule #1 of Atheism** > > - ignore your God your creator. How can you pay attention to something you haven’t seen? Or, to put it another way, how do you justify ignoring the teapot in orbit between earth and mars? > [@](#): > > **Rule #2 of Atheism** > -Impose conditions on your God your creator. “I won’t believe in my God my creator unless He shows Himself to me.” There is this book, I assume you have heard of, full of stories of a creator God showing himself to people. Burning bushes, flaming swords, pillars of salt, world-covering floods, rivers of blood, locusts, darkness, killing every first-born egyptian child, staves turning into snakes and creating a spring, having a child, water into wine, raising the dead, you know, stuff like that. If that is the “creator” you’re talking about , I think it’s fair to ask “why hasn’t He done any of that stuff recently?” If those really were histories, and not just stories, they are talking about an entity with (1) the ability, and (2) a fairly frequent tendency of dramatically showing Himself to the world. If there is such an entity, why hasn’t He continued to do so? > [@](#): > > **Rule #3 of Atheism** > > - Accuse your God your creator. "If there is a God why has He not shown Himself to me. See my response to #2. Atheists aren’t the group who have proposed a God that can, and often does do very dramatic things that are observed by, and affect the whole world. They’re simply asking "if such an entity exists, why hasn’t He continued with His demonstrated tendency to show Himself in very dramatic ways. > [@](#): > > **Rule # 4 of Atheism** > > - Disrespect your God your creator, do not capitalize, nor show respect when referring to your God your Creator. But I do capitalize Flying Spaghetti Monster. > [@](#): > > Admittedly these rules only work if there really is a creator God, which there is btw. We have all been touched by his noodly appendage. > [@](#): > > So taking that there is a creator God as a starting premise, Atheists is nothing more then a stubborn rebellious child of God who is just choosing to ignore their parent. Well, yes. And taking as a starting premise that there is no God, the bible is a work of fiction, and it is irrational and foolish for people to structure their lives around the belief that such a God exists. So if you are correct, “Atheists is nothing more then a stubborn rebellious child of God,” and if the premise I have offered in response is correct, believers are irrational and foolish. It all depends on which premise is right. Let me be clear: in this last point, I am arguing without making any statement of what I think the correct starting premise is. I do not wish to be implied to have endorsed either the premise you propose or the one I respond with (for one thing, Zeus would strike me down were I to do so). I am just making this last point to show how silly it is to try to make an argument that takes its conclusion as a starting premise. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/103 "2010-02-10T19:37:57Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > **Rule #1 of Atheism** > > - ignore your God your creator. > **Rule #2 of Atheism** > -Impose conditions on your God your creator. “I won’t believe in my God my creator unless He shows Himself to me.” > **Rule #3 of Atheism** > - Accuse your God your creator. "If there is a God why has He not shown Himself to me. > **Rule # 4 of Atheism** > - Disrespect your God your creator, do not capitalize, nor show respect when referring to your God your Creator. 😕 If you follow Rules #s 2 through 4, you’re breaking Rule #1. And if you follow Rule #1, you’re breaking Rules #s 2 through 4. I guess atheism is all about breaking the rules. > [@kanicbird](#): > > Admittedly these rules only work if there really is a creator God, which there is btw. Cite, please? And some reason why a hypothetical disinterested observer would be likely to consider the cite authoritative, if you don’t mind. > [@kanicbird](#): > > So taking that there is a creator God as a starting premise, Again, why do you expect anyone to take that as a starting premise? > [@kanicbird](#): > > Atheists is nothing more then a stubborn rebellious child of God who is just choosing to ignore their parent. So, I guess I had it right about the rule-breaking thing, eh? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/104 "2010-02-10T19:39:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > In spite of itself, this thread has turned into a carbon copy or a continuation of the one that inspired it, so I am going to send it back to Great Debates. Hey, don’t blame me – I thought it was the right place to begin with. I think this is the first 2-page thread I’ve ever started. Maybe there is a god after all… ETA: Hey! It’s three pages now. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/105 "2010-02-10T19:41:05Z")
\*\*kanicbird \*\* If I were to believe in your God, I would still think he’s a terrorist, narcissistic, mood-swinging looney. Your god’s decision have changed after something intervened, which tells me he’s not the infallible. I think that leads me to believe he’s a man-made God. Pray for me. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/106 "2010-02-10T19:43:21Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Your fault for choosing to buy a house in an HOA, with CC&Rs. Heh. I had to look up both of those abbreviations. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/107 "2010-02-10T19:52:26Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > And they do tend to treat their subject with a fervor that reminds me of the fervor religious people bring to their defenses of religion. Tell me about it! I hate when I’m in the tub or painting a room and the doorbell rings. At the door, there is the usual crowd of atheists trying to push their philosophy onto me, talking about Dawkins and Spinoza, handing me pamphlets. Or, when you turn on the television and there is some blowhard atheist asking for money to further the cause of atheism and it’s many tenets. (What were they again? I had them right here…something about nothing, dang it, I can’t find it!) Or, when I’m in church and you have some atheists insisting on no prayer in churches and that evolution is taught along side my favorite creation story (you know, the one about the Great Green Arkleseizure). Jeebus! I hate when those atheists and their fervor get in my face like that! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/108 "2010-02-10T19:58:12Z")
> [@](#): > > My point was that many (not all) theists often offer the world as evidence that gods exist. Many atheists (not all) offer the world as evidence that there are no gods. No, an atheist offers the world as evidence that the world exists. There’s no leap of faith there. It’s the theists who offer the existence of the world that something other than the world exists who have crossed over into religion. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/109 "2010-02-10T20:08:51Z")
Let me ask the religious this. A Christian doesn’t believe in the existence of Zeus. An atheist also doesn’t believe in the existence of Zeus. Is there a difference in the way a Christian doesn’t believe in Zeus and the way an atheist doesn’t believe in Zeus? A Muslim doesn’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. An atheist also doesn’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. Is there a difference in the way a Muslim doesn’t believe in Jesus and the way an atheist doesn’t believe in Jesus? And if a person doesn’t believe in the divinity of Jesus, that makes him an atheist as far as a Christian is concerned but it doesn’t make him an atheist to a Muslim. So how is it one belief may or may not make you an atheist? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/110 "2010-02-10T20:19:11Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > **Rule #1 of Atheism** > > - ignore your God your creator. > **Rule #2 of Atheism** > -Impose conditions on your God your creator. “I won’t believe in my God my creator unless He shows Himself to me.” > **Rule #3 of Atheism** > - Accuse your God your creator. "If there is a God why has He not shown Himself to me. > **Rule # 4 of Atheism** > - Disrespect your God your creator, do not capitalize, nor show respect when referring to your God your Creator. > > Admittedly these rules only work if there really is a creator God, which there is btw. So taking that there is a creator God as a starting premise, Atheists is nothing more then a stubborn rebellious child of God who is just choosing to ignore their parent. > > God still Loves them and Jesus came to redeem them too. Where do you get this shit? Atheism is a lack of religion due to achieving the understanding, there is no god. I spend zero time thinking about “god” , the tooth fairy or the Easter Bunny. It appears to color your entire life though. No.2 is dumb. I impose no conditions. But if god existed there would have been plenty of evidence by now. Since there is none, the conclusion that god does not exist is straightforward and simple. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/111 "2010-02-10T20:20:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “There is no God” is shorthand for “Up to this point no one has come up with enough evidence to even consider the possibility of God existing.” That’s one approach. I prefer: “there are no gods”\* is shorthand for "no one has yet suggested a definition for the word “god” which makes any sort of meaningful sense in the statement “there is a god”. Sandwich - I commend this to you as the correct number and capitalisation for atheist use. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/112 "2010-02-10T20:27:09Z")
A religion is more than just a coherent set of beliefs. It is a set of beliefs that informs a believer’s actions at a fairly fundamental level. It is this “faith in action”, in fact, which most believers primarily identify as their religion. This (IMO) is why logical arguments made against a belief structure aren’t very successful in getting the believers to change their minds: Such arguments virtually ignore the personal dynamism of religious belief (please note I’m not defending any particular actions wrought from a religious world-view, just stating the plain fact that people who profess a belief in God or any associated theories about God–e.g. the divinity/mission of Christ in the Christian religion–live and act in ways that are strongly influenced by this belief). If atheism is a religion–or at least can be compared to a religion–people who hold this belief should be using it in a fundamental way to inform their actions. I’m not sure this actually happens, but I’ll leave that for others to kick around. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/113 "2010-02-10T20:40:17Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > We can discuss any topic with fervor. That doesn’t make any one of those things seem like a religion. If I discuss why Birthers or Truthers are idiots with “fervor”, does that make the non-belief in those causes seem like a religion? Of course not. Well…atheists, when discussing atheism, usually are involved in discussions that deal at least tangentially with religion or religious related topics. Fervor is a hallmark of many theistic arguments. When I see fervor in atheists…it reminds me of theists. If you don’t…no problem. > [@](#): > > You really have no idea how stupid that statement is, do you? That atheists can have causes that are “wildly diverse” than other atheists makes atheism seem like a religion? Are you kidding? Nope. I just a huge kick out of watching atheist squirm when you call attention to the fact that they often treat their “beliefs” the way theists treat their “beliefs”…as a religion. The do…you are doing it…and I am enjoying this more than you can imagine. > [@](#): > > I guess you got a snow day today and got to stay home from school? I’m 73. Finally got out of grammar school last year. No more school for me. > [@](#): > > Try reading it again. Okay, I did. And it still is incomprehensible. > [@](#): > > I am an atheist. If you’re without belief in the existence of any gods, you are too. Oh the joy of it! Atheists have been trying to make me one of them for decades. I guess they need the reason and logic agnostics bring to discussions. But, no thanks. I am not an atheist. I am an agnostic. > [@](#): > > Atheism and theism aren’t relied on by knowledge, but by belief. You don’t have to know there is a god to be a theist and you don’t have to know there isn’t to be an atheist. And obviously you do not have to be able to put together a coherent sentence either. But what does that have to do with things? > [@](#): > > You separated yourself from both theists and atheists and put yourself in a separate “agnostic” group. As you’ve been told in another thread, agnosticism is not mutually exclusive from atheism or theism. That is contrary to what most agnostics accept as agnosticism. If you’re without belief in the existence of any gods, you’re an atheist. Really? Is that some law that was passed recently? I am an agnostic. We agnostics do not have a belief in gods. That does not make us atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/114 "2010-02-10T20:54:55Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Nope. I just a huge kick out of watching atheist squirm when you call attention to the fact that they often treat their “beliefs” the way theists treat their “beliefs”…as a religion. > > The do…you are doing it…and I am enjoying this more than you can imagine. Ew! > [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Really? Is that some law that was passed recently? > > I am an agnostic. We agnostics do not have a belief in gods. That does not make us atheists. And I thought I was kidding when I made that crack about Orthodox vs. Reformed Atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/115 "2010-02-10T20:56:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In what post? I must have missed it. You must have…but I did. > [@](#): > > Why don’t you tell me again, what does “reality of existence” mean? How is it different from either the words “reality” or “existence” by themselves. What does it mean to say a god is “involved” with it? I’ve already done all those things…you are not going to get me to jump through hoops, Diogenes. Look for it. And you really should put question marks at the end of questions. > [@](#): > > This is just childish. Oh, you took the words right off my keyboard. But if I mention that…the moderator is gonna get on me again…and I do not want that. > [@](#): > > I wasn’t asking for word definitions, I was asking you for some actual examples of this “ambiguous evidence” for gods that you keep referring to. I am talking about the evidence theists offer for the existence of gods. I think it is bullshit; doesn’t hold water at all. There is absolutely nothing of any substantive value in the supposed “evidence” they offer that there is a god, or are gods. In the case of atheists…the same goes with any “evidence” that causes them to assert there are no gods. Matter of fact, atheists really do not offer “evidence” that there are no gods…they merely work over variations of “We see no gods”…or “There is no need for gods”…neither of which is even remotely evidence that there are no gods. > [@](#): > > I’m starting to think you don’t actually know what the word “evidence” means. Really! Well, that’s an improvement. At least you are starting to think. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/116 "2010-02-10T20:59:11Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Tell me about it! I hate when I’m in the tub or painting a room and the doorbell rings. At the door, there is the usual crowd of atheists trying to push their philosophy onto me, talking about Dawkins and Spinoza, handing me pamphlets. > > Or, when you turn on the television and there is some blowhard atheist asking for money to further the cause of atheism and it’s many tenets. (What were they again? I had them right here…something about nothing, dang it, I can’t find it!) > > Or, when I’m in church and you have some atheists insisting on no prayer in churches and that evolution is taught along side my favorite creation story (you know, the one about the Great Green Arkleseizure). Jeebus! I hate when those atheists and their fervor get in my face like that! Yeah, me too. But with me, it happens mostly on the Internet. Jeez…you must live in a strange place to have them actually knocking on your doors! ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/117 "2010-02-10T21:07:50Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Nope. I just a huge kick out of watching atheist squirm when you call attention to the fact that they often treat their “beliefs” the way theists treat their “beliefs”…as a religion. > > The do…you are doing it…and I am enjoying this more than you can imagine. So, you weren’t kidding, you were saying something that you knew no made sense because you thought it would make atheists here squirm? And you get a big kick out of this? I’m done with you. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/118 "2010-02-10T21:11:21Z")
This has been floated many times, but lets give it another go: Atheism is a religion the same way that \*not \*collecting stamps is a hobby. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/119 "2010-02-10T21:21:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Nope. I just a huge kick out of watching atheist squirm when you call attention to the fact that they often treat their “beliefs” the way theists treat their “beliefs”…as a religion. We’re not squirming. We’re pointing out that what you’ve said has no connection to reality. > [@](#): > > The do…you are doing it…and I am enjoying this more than you can imagine. Actually I hadn’t been imaging your self-enjoyment at all. But now that you’ve put that picture in my mind, I think I’m going to go throw up a little. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/120 "2010-02-10T21:22:20Z")
I think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding at work here. Atheists tend to define themselves as having two subgroups: ‘hard’ atheists, and ‘soft’ atheists. Hard atheists are people who believe that there is no god, period, and soft atheists don’t believe that there is a god, but are open to evidence that could change their minds. Agnostics, meanwhile, define themselves as people who don’t believe that there is a god, but are open to evidence that could change their minds. They define atheists as people who believe that there is no god, period. As such, atheists see agnostics as just other atheists, while agnostics see atheists as crazy zealots. Generally speaking, we are not crazy zealots. I’m not a crazy zealot. By Frank’s definition, I’m an agnostic. But I think of myself as a soft atheist. Now granted, there are some atheists who _are_ crazy zealots, while I have never heard of a self-defined agnostic zealot. This compounds the definition issue, since some agnostics, with the power of confirmation bias, think that ‘atheist’ is the label of a degenerate brute. But, Frank, you’ve got to consider that most people who aren’t self-defined agnostics will call you an atheist. It’s the dominant label for that sort of thing. So if you rant about atheists, soft atheists will wonder what the hell you’re smoking, while theists will think of you as a self-hating atheist. To be honest, I prefer your terminology. It’s more precise. But the court of public opinion has ruled against it long ago, and I abandoned the label a while ago simply to avoid confusion. > [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Yeah, me too. > > But with me, it happens mostly on the Internet. > > Jeez…you must live in a strange place to have them actually knocking on your doors! There’s this thing? It’s called sarcasm. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276.md?page=7)