# Atheism is a religion! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 9, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276 "2010-02-09T15:12:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Eternal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@Eternal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eternal)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/161 "2010-02-11T15:54:04Z")
I and others keep saying them that there are things “most atheist believe” and they keep taking that to mean that there are things “all atheists believe”. It goes to show that no matter your faith or lack of faith, we’re all just stupid animals. I hope there’s not a god so that there can be no salvation for any of us. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/162 "2010-02-11T16:01:32Z")
> [@whorfin](#): > > So now the question: **Is that sufficient for a reasonable person to assert that gravity will exist tomorrow as it does today?** Yes. > [@](#): > > Second, should a reasonable person remain agnostic, as you describe it, to whether tomorrow, gravity will change in a way inexplicable by modern physics? No. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/163 "2010-02-11T16:11:47Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I hope this isn’t stepping over the line, but it seems clear from this thread that **Frank apisa** knows he doesn’t know anything, thinks that no one can know anything, and doesn’t want to be told otherwise. It seems like a lost cause to me. Well, I think it is stepping over the line a bit…but I love a laugh and I have no problem with it…except for the parts that are wrong about it. One…I know (in the generally accepted meaning of that word) lots of things. Two…I most assuredly do not think no one can know anything. Three…I am here for debate and to listen to arguments…so to suggest that I do not want to be “told otherwise” is silly. But I want to see arguments that work. I do not KNOW (in any sense of that word) what the Reality of existence is. I do not know how all this came into being…or if, in fact, it ever did come into being. I do not know if the world as I generally think it to be…is all an illusion…a function of what I call my mind…which may very well be the product of gods. I do not know, therefore, if any gods exist…and I do not see enough unambiguous evidence to make a meaningful guess in either direction. I do, as I am sure you do, see plenty of reason to guess that the god of the Bible, for instance, is almost certainly a fictional character (a barbarous, murderous, onerous, petty, tyrannical fictional character)…BUT I DO NOT KNOW IF GODS EXIST OR NOT…and I do not have enough unambiguous evidence to make a meaningful guess in either direction. Why do you think that to be indicative of a “lost cause?” And why do you have such obvious contempt for my reasoning here? ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/164 "2010-02-11T16:12:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I already knew that, though. > > Or _did_ I? Same questions for you, Mr. Moderator! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/165 "2010-02-11T16:18:04Z")
What is a specific example of this “ambiguous evidence” you keep referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/166 "2010-02-11T16:26:12Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > The FDR is east of 42nd St. 😃 Actually…the FDR is east of 42nd Street. Forgot that the streets in midtown stop there! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/167 "2010-02-11T16:48:40Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Same questions for you, Mr. Moderator! The name is Czarcasm. When I post as a Moderator, you’ll know it. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/168 "2010-02-11T16:52:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The name is Czarcasm. When I post as a Moderator, you’ll know it. Oh my, did I use “moderator.” Of course it is Czarcasm. So the same question to you…Czarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/169 "2010-02-11T16:56:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What is a specific example of this “ambiguous evidence” you keep referring to? Haven’t we gone through this before??? “Ambiguous evidence” is just about all the evidence used by people who assert “there is a god” or “there are no gods” to demonstrate why they make their assertion. Name some evidence used by those kinds of people…and if I think it is not ambiguous, I’ll tell you. Otherwise, I think all of it is. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/170 "2010-02-11T16:57:36Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Oh my, did I use “moderator.” > > Of course it is Czarcasm. > > So the same question to you…Czarcasm. What question? I made a joke (which everyone else seemed to realize.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/171 "2010-02-11T17:02:47Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Haven’t we gone through this before??? > > “Ambiguous evidence” is just about all the evidence used by people who assert “there is a god” or “there are no gods” to demonstrate why they make their assertion. > > Name some evidence used by those kinds of people…and if I think it is not ambiguous, I’ll tell you. > > Otherwise, I think all of it is. Here’s how it works: Since _you_ made the claim, why don’t _you_ present examples of ambiguous evidence from both sides of the fence, so that _we_ may see if _you_ have a valid claim, or if _you_ are just blowin’ smoke up _our_ collective asses. Clear now? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/172 "2010-02-11T17:04:48Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Haven’t we gone through this before??? > > “Ambiguous evidence” is just about all the evidence used by people who assert “there is a god” or “there are no gods” to demonstrate why they make their assertion. > > Name some evidence used by those kinds of people…and if I think it is not ambiguous, I’ll tell you. > > Otherwise, I think all of it is. It is so fundamental. You can provide evidence to prove something that exists ,does. You can not provide evidence to prove something does not exist , does not. If something does not exist, it leaves no tracks. Unless you can accept that there is zero evidence in god existing ,after 14.5 billion years, therefore god does not exist. ---
**Author:** ![whorfin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/6f9a4e/32.png) [@whorfin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whorfin)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/173 "2010-02-11T17:12:34Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Yes. > > No. Cool. Now, I’m sure you saw this coming, and so I would be churlish to dissapoint you. I’m quoting my own post, with alterations made in bold-specifically to change the argument in only one way. > [@whorfin](#): > > To expand that: now, there is a **set of natural laws** that explains why the earth **and everything on, in, and around it** functions as it does. > > We also have billions of years of evidence that **those natural laws** described how the universe worked, with no suggestion of an outside force, **entity,** or mechanism that changes how **the world works in a supernatural way** (if you use the proof astronomers, **archaeologists, physicists, and biologists** can provide). > > We also have hundreds or thousands of years of direct observation that shows (1) that in the past, **the world** worked as we think it does, and (2) that there is no observed ( **or observable evidence of** ) any \*\* supernatural being\*\* that **influenced it in any way, or** could make it work differently–the same things we get from astronomical **archaeological, biological, and physicists’** observations. > > Notably, there is nothing beyond that to prove it’ll be the same tomorrow. All we have is the evidence that **the world** always worked that way–that the observable universe can be explained without needing any unknown mechanism–or any suggestion that **it is** affected by some unknown mechanism **or entity**. > > We also have no evidence that there isn’t some unknown **god** that will change how **the universe** works at 9.00 AM tomorrow, **or, by extending the argument, at any time thereafter**. Why? Because **he** hasn’t affected us yet–and can’t be detected till it does. > > So now the question: Is that sufficient for a reasonable person to assert that **there are no gods** , and that **none will appear tomorrow (or by induction, the day after that, and the day after that, and so on ad infinitum)**? If your answer is different, please justify. All I’ve done is scratched out “gravity” and replaced with “god.” As **gonzomax** accurately points out, in the last 14.5 billion years, there is not one, single, solitary piece of evidence that supports the existence of a god, or is somehow inconsistent with the laws of reality as we now understand them (which any deity-like entity would, more or less by definition, violate). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/174 "2010-02-11T17:15:35Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > I do not know, therefore, if any gods exist…and I do not see enough unambiguous evidence to make a meaningful guess in either direction. Quick question. Do you live your life and interact with the world _as though_ deities exist (and give a crap what you do)? Put another way: Can you think of any changes you would make to the way you live your life/interact with the world if you observed what you found to be unambiguous evidence one way or the other? ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/175 "2010-02-11T17:20:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Here’s how it works: > Since _you_ made the claim, why don’t _you_ present examples of ambiguous evidence from both sides of the fence, so that _we_ may see if _you_ have a valid claim, or if _you_ are just blowin’ smoke up _our_ collective asses. > > Clear now? It is clear that you want me to aswer your question the way you want me to answer it rather than the way I want to answer it. Guess who is going to win that contest? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/176 "2010-02-11T17:23:51Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Haven’t we gone through this before??? > > “Ambiguous evidence” is just about all the evidence used by people who assert “there is a god” or “there are no gods” to demonstrate why they make their assertion. > > Name some evidence used by those kinds of people…and if I think it is not ambiguous, I’ll tell you. > > Otherwise, I think all of it is. Waitaminute. The offering of evidence to try to support the existence of deities is a concept I can get my head around. Offering evidence that deities _don’t_ exist? That makes no sense at all. Could you give some examples of when you have seen somebody try to do this? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/177 "2010-02-11T17:27:35Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > It is clear that you want me to aswer your question the way you want me to answer it rather than the way I want to answer it. Well . . . typically it’s considered more polite to answer the question that you were asked, rather than the one you _would have preferred_ to have been asked. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/178 "2010-02-11T17:28:12Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > It is clear that you want me to aswer your question the way you want me to answer it rather than the way I want to answer it. > > Guess who is going to win that contest? Contest? I wasn’t aware we were playing some sort of childish game-I was just trying to find out what ambiguous evidence you were talking about, but since you refuse to back up a central point of your argument with easily obtainable(if they ever existed, of course) examples, I’d say you have failed to make your point. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/179 "2010-02-11T17:30:10Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Quick question. > > Do you live your life and interact with the world _as though_ deities exist (and give a crap what you do)? I live my life as though no gods or deities exist. > [@](#): > > Put another way: Can you think of any changes you would make to the way you live your life/interact with the world if you observed what you found to be unambiguous evidence one way or the other? Let me see if this answers your question, Kaylasdad: If there are gods out there who “give a crap” what I do…if there are gods out there who are offended by something I might do…or who are pleased with what I might do…or who have an “or else” if I do not suck up to them in some way or another… …bring it on you fucking piece of shit because there is no way I give a rat’s ass what offends you or pleases you. Nor do I give a rat’s ass what you plan to do with me if I do offend you or if I do not kiss your ass. Do you worst…because there is absolutely nothing that would cause me to feel anything but abiding contempt for a crud like you. I hope that captured the spirit of your question…and was an adequate response. By the way…if the god is something other than that–not into all that “do this or else bullshit”…I might wanna ask it if it were interested in having a few brewskis some time…and checking out the babes at the Frying Pan in New York City. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276/180 "2010-02-11T17:32:22Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Waitaminute. The offering of evidence to try to support the existence of deities is a concept I can get my head around. > > Offering evidence that deities _don’t_ exist? That makes no sense at all. Could you give some examples of when you have seen somebody try to do this? Sure…several people right here have been trying to sell the notion that absence of evidence that gods exist…is evidence that gods do not exist. That is complete nonsense to me…but I guess I could squeeze it into the “ambiguous” category. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-a-religion/528276.md?page=10)