# Atheism is now legally a religion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2014, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811 "2014-11-05T22:45:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/61 "2014-11-06T18:07:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Isn’t (or wasn’t) a tomato defined as a fruit for legal purposes? Legality and reality occasionally have at best a nodding acquaintance. I believe it was the other way 'round; botanically tomatoes are a fruit (specifically a berry) . . . ahh yes, > [@](#): > > {…} While it is botanically a fruit, it is considered a vegetable for culinary purposes (as well as under U.S. customs regulations, see [Nix v. Hedden](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_v._Hedden)) {…}[RIGHT][CITE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato)[/RIGHT] CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/62 "2014-11-06T18:08:45Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > What an absurd analogy. Which you can show us by revealing what common definition of “religion” you were referring to in your previous statement, and what atheists could be considered religious according to that definition. Otherwise, all you have just said is “Nuh uh!”. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/63 "2014-11-06T18:20:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What generally recognized definition of “religion” are you using, and what certain atheists qualify as religious under that definition? Richard Dawkins is a fundamentalist. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/64 "2014-11-06T18:30:00Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Richard Dawkins is a fundamentalist. I said that atheism is not a religion, and you replied: > [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > It \*can \*be. It doesn’t have to be a religion. It isn’t always a religion. But sometimes it is. Certain individuals make it so. What definition of “religion” are you using when you say this? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/65 "2014-11-06T18:30:46Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I believe it was the other way 'round; botanically tomatoes are a fruit (specifically a berry) . . . ahh yes,CMC fnord! Thank you berry much. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/66 "2014-11-06T18:36:14Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Richard Dawkins is a fundamentalist. At best, _maybe_, he falls under [category #3 of the definition](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fundamentalist)…but category #3 is definitely non-religious in nature. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/67 "2014-11-06T18:38:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I said that atheism is not a religion, and you replied: > What definition of “religion” are you using when you say this? > **[Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion)** > > The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years! 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, \*especially \*when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and \*often \*containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. Note the use of \*especially \*and _often_. That means that they are not always present in a religion. A set of beliefs without belief in God can be a religion, by the dictionary definition. Or there again, 1. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice. Another definition that fits Dawkins. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/68 "2014-11-06T18:43:36Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > [RELIGION Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion) > > 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, \*especially \*when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and \*often \*containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. > Note the use of \*especially \*and _often_. That means that they are not always present in a religion. A set of beliefs without belief in God can be a religion, by the dictionary definition. > > Or there again, > > 1. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: > to make a religion of fighting prejudice. > > Another definition that fits Dawkins. Dawkins has an atheistic set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/69 "2014-11-06T18:59:55Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > [RELIGION Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion) > > 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, \*especially \*when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and \*often \*containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. > Note the use of \*especially \*and _often_. That means that they are not always present in a religion. A set of beliefs without belief in God can be a religion, by the dictionary definition. > > Or there again, > > 1. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: > to make a religion of fighting prejudice. > > Another definition that fits Dawkins. Is the ‘Big Bang Theory’ (the theory, not the show) a “belief” in your definition? Is ‘Evolution’ ? how do either of these equate to a ‘purpose’ ? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/70 "2014-11-06T19:04:03Z")
Well, I certainly believe in them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/71 "2014-11-06T19:10:13Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Well, I certainly believe in them. The mis-use of definitions and the word games are cute, but how about some direct answers for a change? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/72 "2014-11-06T19:11:54Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Well, I certainly believe in them. You understand how a ‘belief’ can be either based on fact or based on ‘faith’ - and that (as a rule) an atheist will prefer the former over the latter - Thats why ‘atheistic beliefs’ (as such) are not ‘religious’ in nature. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/73 "2014-11-06T19:17:25Z")
Atheism may or may not be a religion; that’s not particularly interesting. But \*dogmatism \*certainly exists among atheists, and it’s just as annoying in them as theists. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/74 "2014-11-06T19:20:20Z")
> [@simster](#): > > You understand how a ‘belief’ can be either based on fact or based on ‘faith’ - and that (as a rule) an atheist will prefer the former over the latter - > > Thats why ‘atheistic beliefs’ (as such) are not ‘religious’ in nature. I should also state that “atheist” only strictly applies to a single statement - does not believe in god(s) - and not to what we’ve suddenly began talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/75 "2014-11-06T19:21:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The mis-use of definitions and the word games are cute, but how about some direct answers for a change? I’ve given you a direct answer. You don’t like my answer. The dictionary doesn’t agree with your definition, so you reject it. That doesn’t change the fact that you’ve been answered. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/76 "2014-11-06T19:22:54Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I’ve given you a direct answer. You don’t like my answer. The dictionary doesn’t agree with your definition, so you reject it. That doesn’t change the fact that you’ve been answered. Your reality is…_interesting_. ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/77 "2014-11-06T19:25:50Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I’ve given you a direct answer. You don’t like my answer. The dictionary doesn’t agree with your definition, so you reject it. That doesn’t change the fact that you’ve been answered. I _believe_ evolution to be a valid explanation for the diversity of species. I believe _in_ evolution. There is a difference in those two statements. Agree? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/78 "2014-11-06T20:07:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Your reality is…_interesting_. yours isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/79 "2014-11-06T20:11:34Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > yours isn’t. Do you acknowledge that the definition of “fundamental” that Dawkins _may_ fall under is not religious in nature, according to the dictionary? I’d like to get that small bugaboo out of the way. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/80 "2014-11-06T20:21:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you acknowledge that the definition of “fundamental” that Dawkins _may_ fall under is not religious in nature, according to the dictionary? I’d like to get that small bugaboo out of the way. Yeah. I have no particular love for Dawkins, and if by “fundamentalist” the intent is to say that his particular philosophical viewpoints are _extremely certain_ for him, or that he is intolerant of alternatives\*, or that he denies even the possibility of anything else, or that he is utterly devoted to it, or purely that he’s kind of a jerk, sure, fundamentalist. I don’t see a religious or belief-based manner in which he could be called that, though. \*To an extent. I personally would consider a “fundamentalist” to be actively violent and aggressive in their ends, but language has evolved on that one I guess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811.md?page=5)