# Atheism is now legally a religion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2014, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811 "2014-11-05T22:45:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/101 "2014-11-06T22:00:50Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Do you really expect me to have read every single thing Dawkins wrote? Several books in which he declares that religion is the root of ALL evfil, attacking any religion at all, and one single chapter in which he says that \*maybe \* God exists after all. That doesn’t change his main message. You shouldn’t carry this big personal grudge against someone and ascribe all of these characteristics to them based on what you’ve heard from other people. The burden is on you to show he’s this boogeyman you declare him to be. Actually, that’s the thing - he IS a boogeyman to the religious, not because he’s this screaming fundamentalist, but exactly because he’s a soft spoken, polite, eloquent intellectual. It’s hard to rail against that, so instead you create a straw image of what he stands for so that you don’t have to withstand what he actually is. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/102 "2014-11-06T22:04:14Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I’ve tried reading some of his stuff, but I found it too obnoxious. Could you cite what you _did_ read that lead you to make declarations about his supposed fundamentalism and obnoxiousness? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/103 "2014-11-06T22:04:30Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think you just have to spend an equivalent tithe amount on hookers, blow and booze and the notgod will then not see what you haven’t done and pronounce it not good. > > I think. Shit. It turns out I’m really pious. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/104 "2014-11-06T22:05:20Z")
Regarding atheism as a religious belief, when a baby is born, he (or she, he for this post) is an atheist. He lacks belief in god. I think we can agree that the baby’s position on the subject is not a religious belief, yes? So, time passes and his parents don’t introduce any religious beliefs - they aren’t religious, so why would they? The child continues to lack any belief in any god. When does that lack of belief become a religious belief? It just makes no sense to me to call that kid’s lack of belief some sort of religious belief. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/105 "2014-11-06T22:29:09Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Wow, now _that_ is a ballsy stance. > > You are hardly a novice round here and yet you still went for it. That is an intellectual “all-in”. Perhaps it has worked as well because I’m so gobsmacked that I can’t quite process a suitable response. What’s your objection, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/106 "2014-11-06T22:30:29Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Regarding atheism as a religious belief, when a baby is born, he (or she, he for this post) is an atheist. He lacks belief in god. I think we can agree that the baby’s position on the subject is not a religious belief, yes? So, time passes and his parents don’t introduce any religious beliefs - they aren’t religious, so why would they? The child continues to lack any belief in any god. When does that lack of belief become a religious belief? It just makes no sense to me to call that kid’s lack of belief some sort of religious belief. I’m not sure it affects your point, but I doubt a kid, even raised on a desert island by parents who never mentioned religion, wouldn’t at least question if there were something more. The Stephen J Pinkers and Frans de Waals of the world argue persuasively that a question about superior being(s) is built into our brains. If your conjecture that “a human child not exposed to religion would never posit a supernatural power” is important, I dispute it. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/107 "2014-11-06T22:32:06Z")
I don’t see how the lack of belief can be called a belief. When the child is born, he’s an atheist and lacks belief. When is that transformed so that this lack of belief becomes a religious belief? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/108 "2014-11-06T22:32:41Z")
When he thinks about unicorns and leprechauns and then decides they don’t exist. At that point, he has a religion. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/109 "2014-11-06T22:35:59Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > You shouldn’t carry this big personal grudge against someone and ascribe all of these characteristics to them based on what you’ve heard from other people. I don’t have a “big personal grudge” against him. Frankly he doesn’t interest me much either way. I made ONE brief comment about him. Other people have made a big thing about it and keep demanding answers. Obviously, he’s much more important to them than to me. > [@](#): > > Actually, that’s the thing - he IS a boogeyman to the religious Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/110 "2014-11-06T22:38:13Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I don’t see how the lack of belief can be called a belief. A) “I don’t believe in god” B) “I am utterly certain there is NO god” A isn’t a belief. B is. Clear? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/111 "2014-11-06T22:40:21Z")
Is A not an atheist? How many people do you think actually hold view B? And how many of those just shorthand it instead of saying “the odds of your particular idea of god being true are very unlikely”? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/112 "2014-11-06T22:44:00Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > A) “I don’t believe in god” > > B) “I am utterly certain there is NO god” > > A isn’t a belief. B is. > > Clear? I’m utterly certain that vampires don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/113 "2014-11-06T22:47:28Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > This argument is always fun. Some atheists get so butthurt over calling their beliefs a religion. It’s just bizarre to us that something so nonsensical could be thought of as a clever gotcha by anyone, even believers in sky wizards. As has been said before, Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/114 "2014-11-06T22:49:02Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > A) “I don’t believe in god” > > B) “I am utterly certain there is NO god” > > A isn’t a belief. B is. > > Clear? What is unclear is whether you know the difference between a belief and a religious belief. Do you? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/115 "2014-11-06T22:51:44Z")
Do I need to get the dictionary out and correct you again? ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/116 "2014-11-06T22:52:54Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Maybe you can give me a cite for him being reasonable? Wow, I can’t \*believe \*I’m taking the bait on this one, but I really just want to see if you will keep digging. Okay, here ya go: _“We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.”_ ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion Seems pretty reasonable to me. ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/117 "2014-11-06T22:55:51Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I don’t see how the lack of belief can be called a belief. When the child is born, he’s an atheist and lacks belief. When is that transformed so that this lack of belief becomes a religious belief? I get what you’re saying but I think it’s better to think of it like, children are born with a lack of knowledge, rather than a lack of belief. You can’t accept or reject something until you’ve been introduced to it, after all. If someone really had no knowledge of “God,” they couldn’t identify as an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/118 "2014-11-06T22:56:06Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Do I need to get the dictionary out and correct you again? I responded to your first so-called “correction”, and you never answered back. What happened? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/119 "2014-11-06T22:59:33Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > As has been said before, Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby. What about someone that spends a lot of time attacking stamp collectors, declaring stamp collecting to be morraly and intellectually wrong, and trying to persuade people to stop their stamp collecting ways. Could \*that \*be a hobby, possibly? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811/120 "2014-11-06T23:00:32Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > A) “I don’t believe in god” > > B) “I am utterly certain there is NO god” > > A isn’t a belief. B is. > > Clear? What about that statement makes B a belief? I can see ways it could be, or ways that it could be based on a belief or beliefs, but I don’t see how we say that statement alone is necessarily a belief. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-is-now-legally-a-religion/703811.md?page=7)