# "Atheism Plus," the new New Atheism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2012, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085 "2012-09-08T09:47:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ragerdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d07c76/32.png) [@ragerdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ragerdude)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/1 "2012-09-08T09:47:31Z")
From the following: [Atheism Plus: The New Wave of Atheism - Greta Christina's Blog](http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/08/20/atheism-plus-the-new-wave-of-atheism/) > [@](#): > > It’s perfect. It illustrates that we’re more than just “dictionary” atheists who happen to not believe in gods and that we want to be a positive force in the world. Commenter dcortesi suggested how this gets atheists out of the “negativity trap” that we so often find ourselves in, when people ask stuff like “What do you atheists do, besides sitting around not-praying, eh?” > > We are… > Atheists plus we care about social justice, > Atheists plus we support women’s rights, > Atheists plus we protest racism, > Atheists plus we fight homophobia and transphobia, > Atheists plus we use critical thinking and skepticism. What do you think of atheism+? Do you think it is a welcome addition, since atheism by itself can be insufficient to organize around? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/2 "2012-09-08T09:53:27Z")
So they’re New New Atheists? I can’t keep track. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/3 "2012-09-08T10:01:29Z")
It could be insulting to regular athiests, the majority of which already believe in those things. The “we are…” list implies that atheists are just now accepting these ideas, when atheists have always accepted them. I suppose there are positives to atheists organizing, but the end of the slippery slope might be when they start behaving like a religion, laying down rules like a religion and asking for money like a religion. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/4 "2012-09-08T10:09:36Z")
It’s already called Humanism. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/5 "2012-09-08T10:11:39Z")
Yeah, the _old_ atheism already has those goals, so I’ll stay the course, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/6 "2012-09-08T10:15:33Z")
Any idea that triggers spelling a word with a character that is not a letter is too full of itself. ---
**Author:** ![TATG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@TATG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TATG)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/7 "2012-09-08T10:17:18Z")
Atheism plus stuff that is consistent with, but not implied by, atheism. Naturally it wouldn’t be “plus” otherwise, but my inclination (in this hypothetical conversation) to respond when asked, what about this other stuff (given your atheism), is that it is _other stuff_. One could go either way on this other stuff. Naturally people want to go the good way. Hence, I propose Atheism Plus the Good Stuff. By definition, anything in the plus column is good stuff. Atheism Plus the Good Stuff; like atheism only with more ice-cream. ---
**Author:** ![ragerdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d07c76/32.png) [@ragerdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ragerdude)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/8 "2012-09-08T10:36:00Z")
I think that part of the issue is that, strictly speaking, atheism is defined by what it doesn’t believe, not by what it believes. Thus, the emphasis on the “plus.” Imagine organizing a group of people around the simple fact that they disbelieve in leprechauns. That doesn’t tell you much about what else they have in common. (It’s only in similar social and cultural contexts that the _paths_ toward atheism lead to similar atheists. For example, in America, many Christians who become atheists go through similar processes of advanced education, reflection, processing, and defining themselves against Christianity, etc., that makes educated American atheists have similar views of science, for example.) I think part of the issue with “old atheism” and “old new atheism” is that it has been dominated by, and organized around, straight white men. The charge is that women, LGBT individuals, and people of color have been excluded to varying degrees. There is a nuanced distinction between the labels atheism+ and humanism (though there is an overlap, and you can be both): [http://freethoughtblogs.com/ashleymiller/2012/08/20/the-difference-between-atheism-and-humanism/](http://freethoughtblogs.com/ashleymiller/2012/08/20/the-difference-between-atheism-and-humanism/) [http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/08/23/humanism-is-great-but-its-not-atheism-plus/](http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/08/23/humanism-is-great-but-its-not-atheism-plus/) ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/9 "2012-09-08T10:39:54Z")
“Atheism” is a useful, descriptive word. It means absence of belief in a god. Adding “plus” and then completely random ideas doesn’t make any sense. Why not have “atheism plus puppies”? You can either choose to support those ideas personally, or you can join organisations that support those specific ideas. I don’t see the market for a description of atheism plus a random assortment of stuff. Atheism is not a group or organisation. It is a description of the absence of belief in a god. You can create a fun club of people who describe themselves as Atheists Plus, but I don’t think I’ll join, thanks. I’m actually pretty happy sitting around not praying. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/10 "2012-09-08T10:43:13Z")
So that plus is a cross-shaped icon that tells what we believe? Seems dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/11 "2012-09-08T10:43:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, the _old_ atheism already has those goals, so I’ll stay the course, thanks. In other contexts, I’ve seen atheists insist that “atheist” means simply and only “lacking belief that God exists,” and that no further conclusions should be drawn about a person who identifies as atheist. ---
**Author:** ![ragerdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d07c76/32.png) [@ragerdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ragerdude)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/12 "2012-09-08T10:48:41Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > “Atheism” is a useful, descriptive word. It means absence of belief in a god. Adding “plus” and then completely random ideas doesn’t make any sense. Why not have “atheism plus puppies”? You can either choose to support those ideas personally, or you can join organisations that support those specific ideas. I don’t see the market for a description of atheism plus a random assortment of stuff. > > Atheism is not a group or organisation. It is a description of the absence of belief in a god. You can create a fun club of people who describe themselves as Atheists Plus, but I don’t think I’ll join, thanks. I’m actually pretty happy sitting around not praying. I personally don’t identify with the atheism+ movement, but one analogy I’ve seen is this. What if a bunch of atheists who like knitting got together and formed a club, why couldn’t they call it the “Atheist Knitting Club”? I don’t see why they couldn’t. But in the case of A+, the loose connection is that this subset of atheists finds religion to be a large part of the root of racism, sexism, and homophobia in our society, and they find it worthwhile to fight these things together, comprehensively, using the same tools of rational, critical thought that led them to atheism. ---
**Author:** ![ragerdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d07c76/32.png) [@ragerdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ragerdude)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/13 "2012-09-08T10:49:41Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > So that plus is a cross-shaped icon that tells what we believe? Seems dumb. I like to think that the little cross on the end is for JESUS! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/14 "2012-09-08T10:50:01Z")
It seems unnecessary. The term “secular humanist” pretty much has that covered. Atheist is still a dirty word to religious people, whether or not it has a plus sign after it. ---
**Author:** ![ragerdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d07c76/32.png) [@ragerdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ragerdude)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/15 "2012-09-08T11:12:45Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > It seems unnecessary. The term “secular humanist” pretty much has that covered. Atheist is still a dirty word to religious people, whether or not it has a plus sign after it. I think that’s exactly the point! Some want to choose the term that’s more provocative and vocal, to support the visibility of atheists, much along the lines of how “coming out” has helped the LGBT movement. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/16 "2012-09-08T11:26:22Z")
> [@](#): > > We are… > Atheists plus we care about social justice, > Atheists plus we support women’s rights, > Atheists plus we protest racism, > Atheists plus we fight homophobia and transphobia, > Atheists plus we use critical thinking and skepticism. All of these things are orthogonal to atheism. A person can do, or not do, any or all of these things while believing, disbelieving, or being unsure about or indifferent to, the existence of God. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/17 "2012-09-08T12:05:09Z")
> [@ragerdude](#): > > I personally don’t identify with the atheism+ movement, but one analogy I’ve seen is this. What if a bunch of atheists who like knitting got together and formed a club, why couldn’t they call it the “Atheist Knitting Club”? I don’t see why they couldn’t. > > But in the case of A+, the loose connection is that this subset of atheists finds religion to be a large part of the root of racism, sexism, and homophobia in our society, and they find it worthwhile to fight these things together, comprehensively, using the same tools of rational, critical thought that led them to atheism. Yup, starting a club is a-ok 🙂 It’s just, like I said, I have no need for this club. Or an atheist club at all. I don’t need an afaeryist club either, or club for people who don’t knit but do want to support gay rights. I can support gay rights and sit around not praying just fine as it is. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/18 "2012-09-08T12:15:42Z")
Is there something called an “atheist heretic”? Someone who repudiates the doctrines of atheism? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/19 "2012-09-08T12:34:43Z")
The Bible isn’t enough, we have to pick a fight with the dictionary too? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085/20 "2012-09-08T12:41:33Z")
“We” makes it sound like a religion to me, or at best an organization. Count this atheist out. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-plus-the-new-new-atheism/634085.md?page=2)