# Atheism versus Theism. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2004, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906 "2004-10-12T23:56:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/21 "2004-10-13T09:01:44Z")
I sometimes get the impression that people tend to make themselves believe in God/religion because on some level they feel that life in general, is kind of boring-- if not nefarious with all the crap we see in real life or the media (or where ever). And quite frankly I can see how this could happen. I mean what a romantic idea, right? To think that we, in a sense, are immortal? Hey I’d love it if I thought it were true. Since I can’t make myself believe in God the thought of the afterlife doesn’t hold much intrigue for me. However, that being said, I am somewhat taken back by the fact the we (humans) are the most advanced lifeforms with in a 20 light year radius (that’s my estimate) of our planet. When I think about the numbers alone, along with the probability that made us humans possible; it in a way gives me what some Theist might identify as a spiritual fulfillment. It also makes me appreciate THIS life we have NOW a whole heck of alot more. As opposed to the mentality of “Oh this life is second rate, but I’m gonna be the best person I can be so I can reap the rewards in the afterlife…” ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/22 "2004-10-13T09:19:09Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > I do envy religious people sometimes–it must be nice to believe in an afterlife, and everything has a “reason” and that you’ll see your loved ones after you die. > > But there is just no way I could ever make myself believe in any of that. I feel the same way. I see it like this: I envy kids who believe in Santa Claus, because it makes the world a more fun place if there’s a jolly guy who brings you presents every year. But, I simply can’t force myself to believe in Santa Claus, just because it would make me happier. Now, if there were a pill I could take that would make me believe 100% in an all-loving God and Santa, I would give it some serious thought whether to take the pill or not. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/23 "2004-10-13T09:43:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Which one has the better quality of life, I suppose. So which one, objectively, makes people feel better? That seems like modified Pascal somehow. Not that I’m accusing **Lobsang** of anything. Anyway, most people adjust to whatever they think, so I doubt there’s any intrinstic advantage. [There are exceptions; I’ve always had a mix of pity and contempt for the atheists that don’t, the ‘I wish I could believe’ crowd.] The one possible advantage I’ll give theists is that they get to use platitudes I don’t when somebody dies (i.e. ‘she’s in a better place’) or in some other bad but helpless situation (‘my prayers are with you and your family’). ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/24 "2004-10-13T10:02:37Z")
Yes, this is a variant of Pascal’s Wager and I’m not sure there can be any definitive answer - setting aside the issue of whether the individuals are actually right or wrong in their positions is to deliberately exclude the most important criterion of comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/25 "2004-10-13T10:06:24Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > Putting all bias aside, and for the sake of argument asuming that theists and atheist can be equally right and wrong, which side has the advantage in your opinion? It’s a draw. If goodness were an intellectual exercise born in the brain, God would be made of atoms. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/26 "2004-10-13T10:15:42Z")
But to try to answer in the spirit(no pun intended) of the question. If an atheist lives his life as he sees fit, then (non)experiences annihilation at death, he’s not missing out on anything or being cheated out of something that was due - he simply no longer exists to be bothered about it. If a theist lives his life as he feels is necessary and upon death is rewarded by some kind of eternal life (I think we have to allow that it would be perfect and wonderful in every concievable way, and that he qualifies to receive it), he’s still alive and enjoying himself. Is he better off than the atheist? Impossible to say, because there is no longer any atheist with which to compare him. I suppose the atheist might have enjoyed the eternal life, but he’s not missing it. To bring the question down to a more mundane level, is it better to live than it is to have never been born? The living would (mostly) probably say yes, but it isn’t possible to ask the other group. ---
**Author:** ![MrFantsyPants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MrFantsyPants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFantsyPants)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/27 "2004-10-13T16:23:51Z")
I think that what it comes down to is that being true to yourself is what is right for you. I’m an atheist because it’s right for me, and that is just peachy for me. As long as you look inside you for the answer, you can’t go too wrong. Now, that said, the deeply religious people that I know (and am related to) often seem to be embroiled in some sort of conflict. Probably not a good sampling though. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/28 "2004-10-13T16:31:14Z")
> [@MrFantsyPants](#): > > I think that what it comes down to is that being true to yourself is what is right for you. I’m an atheist because it’s right for me, and that is just peachy for me. As long as you look inside you for the answer, you can’t go too wrong. I agree with you here. Forcing yourself to believe something doesn’t really work IMO and you should be happy with the way you are. > [@MrFantsyPants](#): > > Now, that said, the deeply religious people that I know (and am related to) often seem to be embroiled in some sort of conflict. Probably not a good sampling though. I know a few who are in a similar situation. I’d guess that some atheists also have religious-related conflict, but I can’t really say because I don’t know a great deal of atheists. ---
**Author:** ![InvidiousCourgette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@InvidiousCourgette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InvidiousCourgette)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/29 "2004-10-13T16:49:00Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Now, if there were a pill I could take that would make me believe 100% in an all-loving God and Santa, I would give it some serious thought whether to take the pill or not. That is an interesting thought. If there was pill for atheists that made you believe in god, and a pill for theists that disabused you of that notion, who would take the pill? As an atheist I might consider it. I do think there must be some comfort in believing in a higher power watching over you. I might be willing to believe true what I sincerely believe to be false if it made me a happier person. Anyway, I suspect that more atheists would take the pill than theists. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/30 "2004-10-13T17:08:12Z")
Originally Posted by **Polerius** > [@](#): > > - > > Now, if there were a pill I could take that would make me believe 100% in an all-loving God and Santa, I would give it some serious thought whether to take the pill or not\* Yes, that \*is \* an interesting thought. Like **InvidiousCourgette** said: There must be some comfort in believing. When you’re ill, or when you’ve done something bad [go confess]. But what if my religion taught me that condoms are a curse, abortion doctors ought to be killed, women are second-class citizens and homo-sexuals ought to be thrown of high buildings - head first? I don’t think I’d be happy to believe in that. I’ll stay off that pill and keep on being an atheïst, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/31 "2004-10-13T17:34:20Z")
> [@gum](#): > > But what if my religion taught me that condoms are a curse, abortion doctors ought to be killed, women are second-class citizens and homo-sexuals ought to be thrown of high buildings - head first? > > I don’t think I’d be happy to believe in that. I can’t think of a serious religion that teaches any of that. That sort of stuff usually comes the fundamentalist branches. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/32 "2004-10-13T18:04:32Z")
Originally posted by \*\* Lord Ashtar\*\* > [@](#): > > - I can’t think of a serious religion that teaches any of that. That sort of stuff usually comes the fundamentalist branches.\* And fundamental branches don’t teach that sort of stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/33 "2004-10-13T18:10:07Z")
I can see absolutely no personal advantage to being an atheist. I don’t discount the existence of a divinity out-of-hand (the problem of proving a negative, and all that), so in the most pedantic sense I am an agnostic; but I operate as a functional atheist, since operating under the assumption we’re really our own seems to be supported by the utter lack of evidence to the contrary. I could be wrong; but I’ll probably never know if I’m right. I’ve often wondered why theists think such skepticism is a kind of smug superiority. To me it’s often a terrifying acknowledgement of the available evidence: I’m a biological machine, posessed of an ephemeral ego that will likely annihilate upon cessation of function. That means the period of time that this collection of sentient matter I call “I” operates as a self-regulating exothermic chemoreactor is quite simply all that there is for “me”; if I could have done better, if I could have been happier, if my living time could have _meant something_ but didn’t, those lost opportunities shall forever be so. There is no second chance, and no great reward for my labors to eke out a comfortable living while waging the futile struggle against pain, loss, decrepitude, and unproud death (which will probably fall upon me as I lay in dementia among a spider-web of tubes perforating me from all directions, steeping in my own excrement). If I could trade this awareness for deep conviction in the kind of blissful afterlife, say, Christianity promises, I’d give it up in a heartbeat. I’d be happy with the delusion, because I’d know no better, and when I died, it would hardly matter to me (though it might have a persistent impact on my descendants, for good or ill). The fact is, I can’t. I have this odd habit of trying not to be fooled, of doubting that which cannot be proven, which, so far as I can tell, has little to do with my day-to-day level of contentment. That I can feel happy and get through the average day knowing death and oblivion are just arond the corner is probably a function of natural selection working irresistably on my forebearers as they struggled to survive with burgeoning consciousness; an accident of nature, and nothing more; neither purely rational, nor absurd, but simply the result of the genetic and environmental crapshoot that resulted in myself. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/34 "2004-10-13T18:10:59Z")
> [@gum](#): > > And fundamental branches don’t teach that sort of stuff? Isn’t that what I said? ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/35 "2004-10-13T18:24:03Z")
**Lord Ashtar** , Then you’re wrong. There’s another thread about this. I don’t feel like searching for it. Just google for Imam - homosexuals - Netherlands. This Iman _teaches_ children to ‘throw homo-sexuals of high buldings and stone them untill they’re dead’. [I’m guessing the last bit was added in case the building wasn’t high enough :rolleyes:] btw: Also google for Caliph of Cologne. The imam that declared war on modern-day Turkey and taught his followers to kill his opponent. He’s just kicked out of Germany and currently in Turkish jail. ---
**Author:** ![InvidiousCourgette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@InvidiousCourgette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InvidiousCourgette)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/36 "2004-10-13T19:36:05Z")
> [@gum](#): > > **Lord Ashtar** , Then you’re wrong. > > There’s another thread about this. I don’t feel like searching for it. Just google for Imam - homosexuals - Netherlands. > > This Iman _teaches_ children to ‘throw homo-sexuals of high buldings and stone them untill they’re dead’. [I’m guessing the last bit was added in case the building wasn’t high enough :rolleyes:] > > btw: Also google for Caliph of Cologne. The imam that declared war on modern-day Turkey and taught his followers to kill his opponent. He’s just kicked out of Germany and currently in Turkish jail. **gum** , is there a point you are trying to make with respect to the OP, or is this just another anti Moslem diatribe? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/37 "2004-10-13T19:47:42Z")
Why are you pretending he doesn’t have a point? He is being grilled with respect to his opinion about fundamentalists. He is using a fundamentalist scripture to make his point. Had he used the Christian New Testament, would you be worried about some perceived “diatribe”? ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/38 "2004-10-13T19:53:03Z")
That wasn’t a very intelligent post, now was it, **InvidiousCourgette**? Where did I specifically mention muslims? _All_ fundamental branches, of _all_ religions [see my reference on abortion doctors] who teach that sort of stuff, are enough to make me happy to be an atheïst. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/39 "2004-10-13T19:55:24Z")
[**Liberal** , I’m a woman. 🙂] ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/40 "2004-10-13T19:57:28Z")
> [@gum](#): > > **Lord Ashtar** , Then you’re wrong. > > There’s another thread about this. I don’t feel like searching for it. Just google for Imam - homosexuals - Netherlands. > > This Iman _teaches_ children to ‘throw homo-sexuals of high buldings and stone them untill they’re dead’. [I’m guessing the last bit was added in case the building wasn’t high enough :rolleyes:] Is this the mainstream Islamic position on how to handle homosexuals, or is it just this one nutjob’s personal crusade? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906.md?page=3)