# Atheism versus Theism. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2004, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906 "2004-10-12T23:56:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/41 "2004-10-13T19:57:42Z")
I’m actually a bit confused by the exchanges of Gum and Lord Ashtar-the way I see it is this: Gum mentions some atrocities that certain religious people do. Lord Ashtar says that he can’t think of a serious religion that either commit or advocate such things, and that only fundamentalists do that; thereby seperating serious religion from fundamentalism _branches_. Then Gum said don’t fundamentalist branches teach that sort of stuff? To which Lord Ashtar seems to agree. Gum then says there is a religion that supports such stuff (or a fundamentalist branch, I’m not sure). Invidious Courgette makes a comment about Gum having no point. Me, I’m not feeling well, my heads cloudy and I the above is what I percieve. It seems to me as though Lord Ashtar is making a distinction between religion and fundamentalists. I could be wrong, and it’s time to take some more medicine… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/42 "2004-10-13T20:05:52Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > It seems to me as though Lord Ashtar is making a distinction between religion and fundamentalists. To be completely clear, I was trying to make a distinction between normal, reasonable religious folk and people like Jack Chick, Fred Phelps, and the guy that **gum** mentioned earlier. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/43 "2004-10-13T20:07:41Z")
**Lord Ashtar** , I don’t know. I’m not an Imam. There’s certainly more than just one nutjob. [as I’m sure there are certainly more crazies who attack abortion clinics] **Meatros** I’ll just repeat: _All_ fundamental branches, of \*all religions \*who teach that sort of stuff, are enough to make me happy to be an atheïst. [which is what this debate is about, correct?] ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/44 "2004-10-13T20:09:36Z")
> [@gum](#): > > [**Liberal** , I’m a woman. 🙂] Aren’t we all? At heart? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/45 "2004-10-13T20:12:51Z")
Originally posted by **Liberal** > [@](#): > > _Aren’t we all? At heart? 😉_ hehehehe, I wish. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![InvidiousCourgette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@InvidiousCourgette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InvidiousCourgette)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/46 "2004-10-13T20:38:39Z")
> [@gum](#): > > That wasn’t a very intelligent post, now was it, **InvidiousCourgette**? > Where did I specifically mention muslims? You specifically mentioned Imams. They are specifically Moslem. You have demonstrated your hatred of Moslems in the Pit. I was hoping you were not trying to take this thread down that road. I am glad that you have not. Talking of intelligent posts, about what was Lord Ashtar wrong, when he agreed with your point that fundamentalists spew crazy ideas? > [@gum](#): > > _All_ fundamental branches, of _all_ religions [see my reference on abortion doctors] who teach that sort of stuff, are enough to make me happy to be an atheïst. Fine. > [@Liberal](#): > > Had he used the Christian New Testament, would you be worried about some perceived “diatribe”? No. Had he used the Koran as his source material, again the answer would be no. If he uses the outpourings of some crackpot Imam to slur Islam then I am concerned. Had he used some nutty ideas of a Christian extremist to slur Christianity I would be similarly perturbed. ---
**Author:** ![InvidiousCourgette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@InvidiousCourgette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InvidiousCourgette)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/47 "2004-10-13T20:55:11Z")
> [@InvidiousCourgette](#): > > No. Had **he** used the Koran as his source material, again the answer would be no. If **he** uses the outpourings of some crackpot Imam to slur Islam then I am concerned. Had **he** used some nutty ideas of a Christian extremist to slur Christianity I would be similarly perturbed. :smack: Sorry, _she_. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/48 "2004-10-14T05:20:41Z")
Originally posted by \*\* InvidiousCourgette\*\* > [@](#): > > - > > ``` > You specifically mentioned Imams. They are specifically Moslem. * > > ``` No. I mentioned: that “condoms are a curse, abortion doctors ought to be killed” I haven’t seen muslims doing that. Have you? By IC: > [@](#): > > \*You have demonstrated your hatred of Moslems in the Pit. \* Would you have been slightly less focused on your desire to be trendy, you would have noticed I: 1) I don’t hate. & 2) I dislike _any_ religion. [see a thread of mine called: “Fuck the Church”] By IC > [@](#): > > \*I was hoping you were not trying to take this thread down that road. I am glad that you have not. \* It seems to me you _were_ hoping this thread would get down that road. I haven’t heard a thing from you about atheïsm vs theïsm. [FYI: what this thread is about] And further: Honey, I don’t care whether you’re glad or not. By IC > [@](#): > > _Talking of intelligent posts,_ [Yes, let us] > [@](#): > > - about what was Lord Ashtar wrong, when he agreed with your point that fundamentalists spew crazy ideas?\* **Lord Ashtar** said: “I can’t think of a serious religion that teaches any of that. That sort of stuff usually comes the fundamentalist branches.” [underlining mine] We already have established such things are, indeed, taught. By IC > [@](#): > > _Had he used some nutty ideas of a Christian extremist to slur Christianity I would be similarly perturbed._ That’s interesting. I haven’t heard from you in my “Fuck the Church” thread? By IC > [@](#): > > - :smack: Sorry, she.\* Keep that smack in handy, dear. ---
**Author:** ![InvidiousCourgette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@InvidiousCourgette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InvidiousCourgette)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/49 "2004-10-14T07:38:29Z")
**gum** , let us not play semantic word games here. You asked me where you mentioned Moslems specifically. I pointed out your reference to Imams who are specifically Moslem. OK? You have also alluded to Christian fundamentalist whackjobs. I acknowledge that. OK? I am not attempting to be trendy. I dislike all attempts to slur large groups of people on the basis of the ideas or actions of a few. There is nothing trendy in that. Hate can be defined as extreme dislike. That was the impression I got from you in the Islamo Facist thread. If that impression is incorrect then fine. When **Lord Ashtar** said “That sort of stuff usually _comes_ the fundamentalist branches.” what exactly do you think he meant by _comes_ if not “teaches”? I have not seen your “Fuck the Church” thread. I don’t think I will be looking out for it anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Waccoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Waccoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waccoe)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/50 "2004-10-14T08:47:29Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > I can see absolutely no personal advantage to being an atheist. I don’t discount the existence of a divinity out-of-hand (the problem of proving a negative, and all that), so in the most pedantic sense I am an agnostic; but I operate as a functional atheist, since operating under the assumption we’re really our own seems to be supported by the utter lack of evidence to the contrary. I could be wrong; but I’ll probably never know if I’m right. > > I’ve often wondered why theists think such skepticism is a kind of smug superiority. To me it’s often a terrifying acknowledgement of the available evidence: I’m a biological machine, posessed of an ephemeral ego that will likely annihilate upon cessation of function. That means the period of time that this collection of sentient matter I call “I” operates as a self-regulating exothermic chemoreactor is quite simply all that there is for “me”; if I could have done better, if I could have been happier, if my living time could have _meant something_ but didn’t, those lost opportunities shall forever be so. There is no second chance, and no great reward for my labors to eke out a comfortable living while waging the futile struggle against pain, loss, decrepitude, and unproud death (which will probably fall upon me as I lay in dementia among a spider-web of tubes perforating me from all directions, steeping in my own excrement). > > If I could trade this awareness for deep conviction in the kind of blissful afterlife, say, Christianity promises, I’d give it up in a heartbeat. I’d be happy with the delusion, because I’d know no better, and when I died, it would hardly matter to me (though it might have a persistent impact on my descendants, for good or ill). The fact is, I can’t. I have this odd habit of trying not to be fooled, of doubting that which cannot be proven, which, so far as I can tell, has little to do with my day-to-day level of contentment. That I can feel happy and get through the average day knowing death and oblivion are just arond the corner is probably a function of natural selection working irresistably on my forebearers as they struggled to survive with burgeoning consciousness; an accident of nature, and nothing more; neither purely rational, nor absurd, but simply the result of the genetic and environmental crapshoot that resulted in myself. That’s how I feel too, Loopydude. I’d take the pill. Especially desirable if and when I lose somebody close to me, I expect. Does your theory about natural selection mean that the human race will move towards theism or atheism? Are we selecting people who are capable of living with futility as the superstitions recede? Or will people who can believe prove the hardier and less prone to suicide and stress-induced cancers? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/51 "2004-10-14T08:51:48Z")
> [@InvidiousCourgette](#): > > That is an interesting thought. If there was pill for atheists that made you believe in god, and a pill for theists that disabused you of that notion, who would take the pill? As an atheist I might consider it. I do think there must be some comfort in believing in a higher power watching over you. I might be willing to believe true what I sincerely believe to be false if it made me a happier person. Anyway, I suspect that more atheists would take the pill than theists. This I find really interesting because I was having a similar thought the other day; suppose you’re offered a choice of two pills: The blue pill will conform the universe to whatever you currently believe it to be - you won’t necessarily know how much has changed, of course, but it will impose your beliefs on the structure of reality. The red pill will leave the universe completely unchanged, but will enlighten you about the beliefs you currently hold that are objectively incorrect - you won’t know _everything_, so there will still be stuff to discover, but you’ll know what you ought to discard. The blue pill has the capacity to make things _nicer_, but the red pill is the _honest_ option. Which do you choose? ---
**Author:** ![Waccoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Waccoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waccoe)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/52 "2004-10-14T08:58:59Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > This I find really interesting because I was having a similar thought the other day; suppose you’re offered a choice of two pills: > > The blue pill will conform the universe to whatever you currently believe it to be - you won’t necessarily know how much has changed, of course, but it will impose your beliefs on the structure of reality. > > The red pill will leave the universe completely unchanged, but will enlighten you about the beliefs you currently hold that are objectively incorrect - you won’t know _everything_, so there will still be stuff to discover, but you’ll know what you ought to discard. > > The blue pill has the capacity to make things _nicer_, but the red pill is the _honest_ option. Which do you choose? As an atheist, I would take the red pill, on the chance of discovering that I’m wrong - which would be great. I would have thought a theist would want one of those blue things. Surely there’s nobody who would \*prefer \*the absence of a God? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/53 "2004-10-14T09:07:11Z")
Nope; I’m a (rather liberal) theist and I think I’d rather have the red pill; If I’m already right, great; if I’m wrong, I’d rather know about it and deal with it than merely have my delusion made real. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/54 "2004-10-14T09:11:58Z")
Originally posted by InvidiousCourgette > [@](#): > > \*Hate can be defined as extreme dislike. That was the impression I got from you in the Islamo Facist thread. If that impression is incorrect then fine. \* Your definitions and impressions [which are, indeed, incorrect] are all yours and ought to be thought out before accusing someone. > [@](#): > > - > > I dislike all attempts to slur large groups of people on the basis of the ideas or actions of a few.\* Ditto. I also dislike attempts to slur one person on the basis of false impressions and definitions. > [@](#): > > _I have not seen your “Fuck the Church” thread. I don’t think I will be looking out for it anytime soon_ I didn’t think you would. That might hinder your obsession to accuse me, right? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/55 "2004-10-14T09:24:36Z")
> [@](#): > > **Mange** : The red pill will leave the universe completely unchanged, but will enlighten you about the beliefs you currently hold that are objectively incorrect Interesting dichotomy. (Is this the premise of _Matrix IV_ or something? :)) Red pill (but then, of course, do we not all seek a worldview such that taking _either_ the red _or_ blue pill **made no difference**? _Whooaaa…_) > [@](#): > > **Waccoe** : Surely there’s nobody who would prefer the absence of a God? I absolutely would. My happiness derives directly from the thought that I am the most incredible thing in an incredible universe. I am a pattern of ever-changing atoms which somehow has the ability to think. Nothing like me existed for 12 billion years. I am borne of supernovae, I am Made of Stars. Every piece of sensory input I receive has an inexplicable quantum effect on the universe - I am the universe’s way of observing itself. Finding out that some supernatural entity magicked all of this into being the case would be a _huge_ disappointment. How _unimaginative_! Thus, even were God to literally appear before my very eyes, I would think it more likely (and would be happier in believing) that I was being deceived by advanced technology. (Some even argue that that is a more likely scenario than ‘real’ existence [anyway/url]!) And God _has_ [url=http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=2826106]appeared to me]([http://www.simulation-argument.com/](http://www.simulation-argument.com/)) in a sense: I considered this religious epiphany to be merely another aspect of this incredible piece of **physical** offal in my head. I consider myself to have the best of both worlds: an atheist who delights in the absence of God and yet experiences all the neuropsychological fireworks associated with _believing_ in one! ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/56 "2004-10-14T09:28:39Z")
Sorry, link to: [An atheist meets God](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=2826106) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/57 "2004-10-14T09:35:46Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Interesting dichotomy. (Is this the premise of _Matrix IV_ or something? :)) Red pill (but then, of course, do we not all seek a worldview such that taking _either_ the red _or_ blue pill **made no difference**? _Whooaaa…_) Sort of; the thought occurred to me in more abstract form; I merely hammered it into the Red/blue pill metaphor for fun, but the resonance is there nevertheless; do you want to be _right_(blue pill) or do you want to know _what’s really going on?_(red pill). I want to know _what’s really going on_, even if that turns out to be something I don’t particularly like. I choose the red pill. ---
**Author:** ![Waccoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Waccoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waccoe)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/58 "2004-10-14T09:36:03Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > merely have my delusion made real. Interesting use of the word “merely”. What about me? The blue pill is your chance to give me everlasting life, and you’re saying your moral integrity (or something) is more important. Tsk. ---
**Author:** ![InvidiousCourgette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@InvidiousCourgette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InvidiousCourgette)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/59 "2004-10-14T09:56:44Z")
Another vote for the red pill. It looks like most of us would take that choice. The separation would seem to be as to whether you hope you discover you are right or hope that you discover that you are wrong. There would be few theists who hope that they are wrong, I suspect. There is a bit more of a quandry for atheists though. I might hope that I discover that I am wrong and that there is a caring, loving God. I might worry that I discover I was wrong and there is a God who is not even interested in us. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906/60 "2004-10-14T10:00:37Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Nope; I’m a (rather liberal) theist and I think I’d rather have the red pill; > > If I’m already right, great; if I’m wrong, I’d rather know about it and deal with it than merely have my delusion made real. But if it’s made real, it’s no longer a delusion, is it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-versus-theism/268906.md?page=4)