# Atheism vs. Toys for Tots **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 4, 2002, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951 "2002-09-04T13:58:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![PosterChild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e274bd/32.png) [@PosterChild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PosterChild)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/41 "2002-09-05T05:20:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \*\*\*pldennison \*\* > Hey, PosterChild, I’ll thank you not to mischaracterize or misinterpret what I said. I do apologize for that. I disagree with your position, but did not mean to imply that you celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday. The fact is that many people do and it **is** a religious holiday. > [@](#): > > See, this may be news to you, but something rather important happens every year on Dec. 21: the Winter Solstice. It marks the shortest day of the year, and the return to longer days and more sunlight. And humans have been celebrating it in many ways and in many places for thousands of years – even in places that aren’t Christian! Imagine that! You are actually the only person I’ve interacted with who uses it to celebrate the winter solstice (which I think is pretty cool). A christmas tree may not have a religous origin, but it is a christian tradition now(whatever its origins). I meant the post to be sarcastic, and however you view the celebration, do you assume that the people at the OP’s office view it the way you do? If you asked them (especially that woman in charge he refers to) would they say, “oh yeah, none of us celebrate it for that christ guy, it’s just a, you know, cultural thing, like memorial day.” While you have an enlightened view, many do not share it and people who have religious beliefs that differ with the Christian majority are continually put in the position of being assumed to be Christian or being harrangued about it. (people do do that) Just for clarification. I celebrate my religion’s (minor) holiday at that time of year, and say “Merry Christmas” to people who wish it to me as well as to those I know celebrate it without a fuss. To me, Christmas just means a day off and probably some time looking at the holiday store decorations. I apologize again for implying that you were one of those people, but I stand by the position that it is still a religious holiday for many (if not most) people in this country. PC P.S.- Even though I’ve been known to give to Christian (and Muslim and Jewish) charities, I strongly back the OP’s position of not having the company provide incentives only to people who donate to a Christian charity. I think he should donate to the charity of his choice and dress in jeans and just say he’s already given to a charity if/when he’s asked. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/42 "2002-09-05T11:13:39Z")
I just don’t get the whole concept of having to pay to wear jeans (regardless of WHERE the money goes). One could argue that actually there is no dress code because the company DOES allow wearing jeans, and the whole “dress code” thing is a pretext for extorting money. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/43 "2002-09-05T11:25:05Z")
It’s quite a common thing in the UK - maybe the idea’s taken from there. We used to do it at school in England - it was called “mufti day” (mufti being “Civilian dress, especially when worn by one who normally wears a uniform”) - for charity. It’s just a bit of fun. ---
**Author:** ![Pergau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7c8e57/32.png) [@Pergau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pergau)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/44 "2002-09-05T12:20:29Z")
Stpauler (funny name for someone who objects to a christian charity!) it’s simple: If you want to wear jeans pay the dollar. If you object to the charity, wear slacks and consider giving the dollar to a charity of your choice. Suggest your own favourite charity as the next recipient. ---
**Author:** ![dragongirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b38774/32.png) [@dragongirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dragongirl)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/45 "2002-09-05T12:40:13Z")
My 9 year old son and I worked with Toys for Tots last year and we will be doing it again this year. When we were passing the toys out last year, those unfortunate kids were so happy that we almost cried. And the parents couldn’t express enough gratitude for helping to give their kids a good holiday. Not all of the gifts given were for Christmas, some were for Hanukkah, some of the toys went to the hospital and some of them were given out simply because the parents couldn’t to buy their kids toys at all. We never asked the religions that the practiced. It was just something that made the kids happy. Would you feel the same way if it was a toy drive in the middle of the summertime ? I understand that you don’t celebrate the holiday, but kids do need toys. They need food and clothing and shelter, but playing helps them to grow and learn too. If you are a Humanatarian, then you can at least understand the need for play. I’m with the others that said, if you don’t want to contribute, then just don’t. But since TFT is not only for Christian children, I can really see your objection. ---
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/46 "2002-09-05T20:08:53Z")
Quote: “I just don’t get the whole concept of having to pay to wear jeans (regardless of WHERE the money goes). One could argue that actually there is no dress code because the company DOES allow wearing jeans, and the whole “dress code” thing is a pretext for extorting money.” Sheesh! It’s just to make giving more fun or interesting. It’s like a kissing booth! They don’t call that prostitution, do they? Give at work (and wear the jeans) and then dig into your pocket and slap down a few for the Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, et al. I have a much bigger problem with The United Way, who support the Boy Scouts, who have a hard-on with the gay community. Now THERE’S a battle worth fighting. I had to drop out of the collection group at work. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2002, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/47 "2002-09-06T18:36:42Z")
Well, first off I want to thank everyone for posting their very valuable opinions here. Sometimes it’s easy for me to get into the emotions of a debate than it is to see the greater picture. Some of it I got to see the error of my ways and some of my arrogance that the logical side of my brain pretends to have with supportable facts. So the conclusion? It’s Friday, the first day of the Jeans Friday marathon. I am sportin’ my denim. I also am donated double the funds to an alternative charity. This one called the Listening House ([http://www.crcmn.org/review/ListHouse.pdf](http://www.crcmn.org/review/ListHouse.pdf)). I have a friend at work who always like to quote The Art of War to me. I still mean to get around to reading it. It’s right there on my nightstand pleading to me everynight. He advised me to sidestep the issue and not confront it head-on. To not cause a stir but make my own path and cross my fingers. Personally, right now I don’t agree with it completely but I sometimes have a tendency to shoot first and let god sort 'em out. (just a little humor for y’all 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![DeadlyAccurate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@DeadlyAccurate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadlyAccurate)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2002, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/48 "2002-09-06T19:43:03Z")
That’s quite a lovely charity to support, **stpauler**. I’m glad you decided to go the route you did. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2002, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/49 "2002-09-06T20:06:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EchoKitty \* > \*\*Quote: > > I have a much bigger problem with The United Way, who support the Boy Scouts, who have a hard-on with the gay community. Now THERE’S a battle worth fighting. I had to drop out of the collection group at work. \*\* My current company doesn’t do United Way, but when I worked for companies that did, they allowed your donation to be targeted to organizations that you don’t object to. (I agree with you about the Boy Scouts.) As for the OP, I don’t think companies should solicit for religious or controversial charities. However, it looks like TFT is neither. I say this as an atheist Jew, who just gets annoyed at the barrage of Christmas stuff. But kids see kids getting presents on TV and in the papers, and helping them get presents does not seem like something to try to stop. Don’t contribute, but also don’t complain to HR. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2002, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/50 "2002-09-06T20:27:27Z")
I forgot to add one thing (again and again). The original email about this situation that kicked off the OP. After I read it is when I opened it up for discussion on the SDMB. So for all curious, here’s the e-mail (with committee and personal names omitted by XXXXs) The XXXX Committee would like to offer another “Blue Jeans” Fund Raiser for Fridays from September 6th thru December 27th. The charity chosen is Toys for Tots which is a foundation established by the United States Marine Corporation for children of all ages, who otherwise would go without at Christmas time. As in the Gillette Children’s Fund Raiser, for every Friday you wish to wear blue jeans, we are asking for a $1.00 donation, or you may donate a toy, which will give you credit for (4) Fridays. There will be a box set up in XXXX’s conference area for the donated toys. To reiterate, if you are out of the office on a Friday, you can still contribute. However, please understand wearing blue jeans is designated for Friday’s only! Also, please keep in mind on these days, the importance of appropriate dress attire when seeing clients or in special meetings. ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2002, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/51 "2002-09-06T20:57:02Z")
:: Donning HR Professional Hat :: If someone came to my office to gripe about something like this, they’d be shown the door in short order. If you don’t like the charity, don’t give. The committee is not obligated to choose a charity which is favored by 100% of the staff. They have, however, chosen a well-liked, well-respected charity to which most of your fellow co-workers would be glad to give a dollar or two, blue jeans wearing rights aside. That you don’t is strictly, squarely, unquestionably **your** problem. Don’t try to make it into anything else. :: Removing HR Professional Hat :: ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2002, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/52 "2002-09-06T21:41:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Using the jeans day charity premise (and let’s say we all love to wear jeans)… what if the company gave us the charity option that went against our morals/beliefs. Let’s say it was for Operation Rescue or Planned Parenthood (contingent on what side of the fence of that issue you sit on). Would it make you concerned by the fact that yes, these charities do help kids one way or another, they may be opposed to the way you think. Then you’re faced with the problem that you disagree with the charity that is set up and there is no allowance for another option. Would you be silent and just not participate, would you try and involve a charity that you did believe in by bringing this issue up to HR, or would you pursue another option. Since you raised this premise, my honest opinion is that it is a bit silly to compare whatever “philosophy” TFT may have with the activist political agenda of Operation Rescue or Planned Parenthood. I truly have never heard of anyone being offended by voluntarily supporting TFT. Really. BTW…with regards to United Way, at my workplace you can **specify** which organizations get your moola. If you have a problem with the Boy Scouts, you can ensure that none of your funds go their way. I suspect that other United Way locals do the same. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/53 "2002-09-06T21:43:14Z")
I think you’ve done the best thing possible, **stpauler**. I’m an atheist and pretty anti-consumer. I hand-make all of the presents I give to my family and friends. But I also contribute to “angel trees” and the like, as well as donateing time wrapping presents for charity. It never occured to me to think of this as a conflict with my beliefs. Holidays and celebrations nuture the soul. They make people feel like they belong, mark time in an often tedious existance, bring people together and give us all something to look forward to. The poor need this as much as anyone else. They don’t have things like vacations to look forward to. It is hard not to be able to participate in the celebrations of your culture (which Christmas surely is). It’s doubly hard if you are a child that cannot understand why, or a parent who has to watch their child’s disappointment. I grew up around kids that receieved toys from these programs, and these toys made an impact on their lives. When you drink powdered milk and watch a black and white television, you occasionally need a little bit of luxery- just one thing in your life that isn’t a bare-bones existance. And a toy could be that thing. And in a world where I easily spend five bucks on a burrito when I don’t want to cook, or ten bucks on a CD, I think I can drop a few bucks at Christmas time to help provide that. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2002, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/54 "2002-09-06T22:29:25Z")
Nicely said even sven ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/55 "2002-09-07T02:55:36Z")
_United States Marine Corporation???_ :eek: ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/56 "2002-09-07T05:29:59Z")
**beagledave** - My local United Way organization doesn’t allow you to specify that your contribution not be given to a particular charity. However, my viewpoint is this: if you put your teaspoon of water into a big bucket, even the weeds you dislike are going to get the water. They are going to distribute the money as they see fit. It’s fooling yourself if you think they know which dollar is yours. To my mind, the only way I can make sure the organizations with which I personally have a problem don’t get my money is to not give to the people giving them money. StG ---
**Author:** ![I\_am\_Sparticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@I\_am\_Sparticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_am_Sparticus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/57 "2002-09-07T06:59:39Z")
Dogs and cats don’t need toys for the holidays, although sometimes they are pleased to get them. Children need toys for the holidays, they aren’t vermin after all. They need toys to stimulate their imaginations and to have fun with. Children also need Christmas, whether you make it religious or secular. “We’re athiests Tommy, we don’t decorate or give presents or fill our guts to overflowing”. Well, that is what the culture is, why inflict your beliefs on your children, your parents didn’t? The neighbor kids will make fun of them (kids are mean too). That doesn’t mean drag them to church, but expect to treat your own kids (if you have some) like kids, not angry college students out to prove a point. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/58 "2002-09-07T13:00:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by StGermain \* > \*\* They are going to distribute the money as they see fit. It’s fooling yourself if you think they know which dollar is yours. > StG \*\* Any cite for that kind of claim? From my local UW [web site](http://www.unitedwayqc.org/pages/aboutus/faq.html)… > [@](#): > > Can I decide where my contribution is invested? > Through Contributor Choice, you can decide where your contribution is invested by selecting an eligible program or agency of your choice. Contributors can also choose to “target” their gift to an impact area through the Target Care option. Community Care and Target Care funds are distributed by the citizen review process described above. Contributors may elect to exclude any agency or program from receiving any portion of their contribution as well. If you are going to accuse UW of outright lying, or me of being foolish, which is what you are doing…a bit of evidence would be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/59 "2002-09-07T14:04:10Z")
Why not just wear the jeans and claim that you made the payment? (“No, no. I gave the money to Marcie!”, or some equivalent) Is there a way that they actually TRACK this/Provethat you DIDN’T pay up? ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951/60 "2002-09-07T15:52:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*If you are going to accuse UW of outright lying, or me of being foolish, which is what you are doing…a bit of evidence would be helpful. \*\* They do not outright lie. If you designate that your money goes to “Fund X” supporte by the United Way, your money will go to “Fund X.” However, given the way that UW dispenses money, if you designate your dollars to go to “Fund X” and they do, then less money from the general undesignated pool goes to “Fund X” and some cash that would have gone to “Fund X” is distributed about to many different funds. (Or at least, that’s how it used to work.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism-vs-toys-for-tots/126951.md?page=4)