Agreeing with the apparent general consensus. Wear regular clothes, give to a charity of your choice, and if anyone asks, say you prefer to contribute to your own causes. (Heck, it’s Sept. now–why not make some toys and then give them to your friendly neighborhood fire department, which I understand often passes out toys to kids who’ve lost their homes? Or, go work at Second Harvest or something to do with food–they need it all year, esp. fresh stuff.)
If my HR dept. set up contributions to PP or something controversial, I’d do pretty much the same, or what StGermain does. I might ask HR to do a poll to see how the employees feel about various charities and then act on it.
Well, I can understand having objections to cetain charities but your objections should at least be grounded in fact and logic.
Toys for Tots DOES collect toys all the way up to December 22, however they distribute toys to local charities and community organizations well before christmas in conjunction with the needs of the communities (And it says as much on the toys for tots website). I called my friendly local Toys for Tots co-ordinator and was told that they work with a variety of charities and community centers to distribute the toys and are not solely limited to giving them out at christmas or to christian charities. If you have a problem with the toys being given out at ANY religious holiday then you might console yourself to think that perhaps quite a few children and families that are largely secular still benefit and are able to have a nice non-religious celebration without feeling left out.
The charity only accepts brand new toys because new toys are made according to up to date federal safety standards. Old toys and handcrafted toys may not meet these standards and could be unsafe for children to play with. The last thing a well meaning charity needs is for a kid to get hurt or killed and have the family sue. While clothing is also necessary, there are alot of other charitable outlets for that and I know I hated getting clothes for christmas as a kid. That’s what is important, you’re trying to make a child HAPPY who probably doesn’t have much reason to BE happy for most of the rest of the year.
As for your humanitarian concerns, there will always be hungry people. Charities exist to meet many needs and emotional needs are just as important (sometimes more so IMO) as purely physical needs. An inexpensive $10 toy may not mean much to most people but to a poor kid it might be the first new thing they have ever owned that was THEIRS. That’s an important feeling, it’s nice and people remember that for years and years. It’s also nice for the parents who I know must tear themselves up because they aren’t able to provide the kind of christmas (or Hannuka ect.) they would like.
Our office sometimes has an Angel Tree around the holidays. One year, a coworker picked out one for a girl that wanted a Barbie doll. Now, that coworker belonged to a Christian religion that didn’t celebrate Christmas in a secular manner (wasn’t JH. Not sure what it was). Since she didn’t buy Christmas gifts, she had plenty of money to really treat this little girl, so she bought her one of those super nice Barbies, the kind most people only buy for adults. I always imagine that little girl got that Christmas gift that day and thought her parents were the most wonderful parents in the world.
I also am an athiest, or perhaps better termed an agnostic. However, having a holiday to remind us to love one another doesn’t seem like that bad of an idea. Too bad we can’t find a way to make it last all year.
As far as TFT:
They deliver to many people, not just Christians. I know, I have helped to deliver.
They once accepted used toys, but many people were using it as a way to get rid of the equivelent of trash.
Starving children is a fine charity. As a compromise, why don’t you ask if you can collect for that during the same months and give people a choice. You can even explain your reasons for wanting to give people a choice.
The TFT site is very visually Christmasy; is that because of the time of year? Just by viewing that, stpauler, I for one don’t think you are over-reacting. I don’t think you are a meanie (or it wouldn’t be a dilemma for you) and I certainly think you are within your rights to be concerned with keeping children clothed or possibly donating books to certain charities instead of toys. I also don’t think you need to get over yourself (it is nobody’s call but yours what is important to you.)
If it makes you uncomfortable, don’t do it. Yes, we all know that kids like gifts, and there are many people who feel good by donating presents. You donate where you wish.
I also think the jeans thing is a weird way to go about contributing to the needy.
Will your company be alternating types of charities?
I think it’s just great that so many people (mostly Christians (or raised Christian so it’s not someone else’s culture) from my experience) have chosen to celebrate Christ’s birth in a non-religious way. So why can’t all you other overly sensitive heathens just accept our non-religious celebration of our saviour.
You should get that stick out of your ass and give money, for Christ’s sake, to a charity that promotes Christmas and just because you don’t believe doesn’t mean you can’t celebrate with the rest of us reasonable people.
And of course, how can you even think of giving money to one of those other non-christian charities, it should be going to TFT, damn it!
(and last, but not least, we Christians don’t give a flying fck if you don’t like to have everyone try to ram the holiday down the throats of your children because even if you don’t teach it to them that’s where it belongs. So get over it already, it’s just holiday fun for everyone.)
P.S.- Of course most Americans (except those pinko-commie-liberal-terrorist-lovers) would be just as comfortable giving up Christmas and celebrating Ramadan (in a non-religious way, of course) instead, because it’s not a religious thing anyway.
JThunder, the reason that one of my options would be to talk to HR is because there weren’t other charities allowed for this event. If another charity (including the most recent one, The Children’s Miracle Network, to which I did donate funds. info about this charity at http://www.cmn.org/) was available, this wouldn’t be problematic. I’m of the opinion that if people believe in the Toys for Tots cause, FINE, use your money towards that. I personally object to it for the above reasons in the OT.
The main question is, since the charity (IMO) is religiously based, shouldn’t there be options since it allows its donors certain priviledges and rewards that are otherwise not allowed? I’ve read the post that some people just abstain from donating to the charities that they object to, but since we are given incentive to donate by receiving a dress code exemption which bends corporate policy, that doesn’t seem like a fair option.
…and as for your last quote “Please don’t bother the Whos down in Whoville.” IIRC, the Whos were the kind of people who when it came down to it were happy WITHOUT presents as well.
Again, nobody can tell you what you should be comfortable with in terms of charitable contributions. Charity is not something to be guilted into or to do because everyone else is. You are being put into an icky position by your company policy.
It is quite popular to donate presents to needy children for Christmas. Many, many people do this. You should not be made to feel guilty, cheap, Scrooge-like or anything else because your upbringing and way of life dictate different routes for you. And you should not be excluded from the comfort of dressing down on these days as if in punishment. Doesn’t sound to me that you are anti-Christmas, anti-Needy or anything like that. A lot of people really don’t think of some Christmasy things as even relating to Christmas. (Like a previous co-worker who couldn’t understand that ornaments are related to Christmas and not generally to winter. It’s just the way she was brought up.)
Hey, PosterChild, I’ll thank you not to mischaracterize or misinterpret what I said. It’s a well-known fact around here that I’m the farthest thing from an apologist for religion, and that I’m no more fond than the next person of “under the radar” establishment of religion. But it’s an incontrovertible fact that there is a secular, seasonal celebration that coincides with the Christian celebration of the birth of Christ. There has been one for nearly all of recorded history; why do you think the Christian church located Christmas there in the first damned place?
Assuming Jesus existed, the Biblical evidence makes it extremely unlikely that he was born in December. But since there was already celebrating going on that time of year, might as well practice some syncretism and put a holiday there. See, this may be news to you, but something rather important happens every year on Dec. 21: the Winter Solstice. It marks the shortest day of the year, and the return to longer days and more sunlight. And humans have been celebrating it in many ways and in many places for thousands of years – even in places that aren’t Christian! Imagine that!
So unless you can explain to me what exactly indoor pine trees, and Yule logs, and “Frosty the Snowman,” and flying reindeer, and so on and so forth, mean in the context of Christianity, I’ll assume you’re just being contentious for its own sake. Even the Japanese put up Christmas decorations these days, and you’ll have a hard time convincing me that they’re primarily Christian. There’s a secular winter celebration in almost every culture, and if that bothers you, oh well.
What’s more, I specifically stated that I don’t celebrate Christmas, but that gift-giving at that time of year is a tradition in our culture, and I’m not going to begrudge my young relatives a gift just because I’m not a holiday person. It makes them happy to receive gifts, and I like making them happy.
Cripes. If I used to be that shrill about this stuff, now I know why people were in my shit all the time.
As far as I can tell, TFTs is a secular non-profit organization with the purpose of giving gifts to disadvantaged children at the time of year when other kids are getting toys. Seems to be the ideal time to give out toys since this is when a kid’s disappointment at not getting any would be the greatest. There is no basis to your claim that TFTs is “religiously based”.
If you would rather save your money to give to a charity more to your liking (feed the hungry), fine, don’t contribute. Perhaps four months from now the office will have one more to your liking. So if it’s offensive to you, don’t give them money. But frankly, IMO you have got to be looking for offense as few people would share your views. For example your claim that a child receiving a new toy once a year is “conspicuous consumption” seems rather over the top.
What if someone had objected to the Children’s Hospital charity on the grounds that they had no kids and were already paying out the nose for school taxes. Should that person have gone to HR to complain?
As far as I can tell, a company is under no compulsion to provide equal time for non-Christian parity, whether for charitible contributions or days off for religious holidays.
You give what you want to give to who you want to give to. If you don’t agree with this particular charity, don’t give. Simple. Go back to giving at work, when a charity is phased in that you agree with, and just give outside of work until then.
This is turning into a discussion about what Christmas is and isn’t. A whole other issue.
stpauler did not ask for anyone’s opinion as to what Christmas presents/Christmas ought to mean to him, but only if there is a reasonable way that he can handle a work situation he feels to be biased. I am not sure what I would do, but I do see that there is a dilemma for you stpauler–wanting perhaps to bring it to the attention of HR but not wanting to make too big of a stink. And the jeans thing still bothers me.
So far I’ve read where people advise you to “not sweat the small stuff,” “stop being a big meanie,” “get over yourself” [yes, I know I already mentioned that one] :), and to see about ass-stick removal. What’s next, someone telling you to get a life? :rolleyes:
I am a firm believer in the motto “Pick your battles.” Key word, your. Many people respond to issues differently; some elicit a strong response in an individual while for others it just rolls off their backs as no big deal. This doesn’t seem to be much of a dilemma for many people, which I can truly understand. But I tend to be a little more sympathetic toward your view.
From browsing the TFT site (home page and “How TFT works” section), it does appear very Christmas-gift oriented. Whether it is or not, I don’t think anyone is saying that this is a horrid sentiment or organization.
I agree with CrazyCatLady on all points (and not just because I like her name).
I read it as if he wanted opinions. My mistake. However, since he lists that he is an athiest as one of the reasons for being against this, it is perfectly reasonable to expect people to address the point: Is Christmas specifically a religious holiday? If we can’t address each of his issues, why ask our opinion?
stpauler didn’t ask about the jeans-thing… However, CrazyCatLady’s point can be addressed:
They can, but they have chosen to provide a way that they feel is fun for the workers and adds no cost to them. If the workers feel it isn’t worth it, they will respond by not contributing.
You apparently missed the messages that suggest that he offer is own time to organize an alternative.
Perhaps so, but as I said, I have first-hand experience to the contrary. And, as RSA has said
It is a valid statement.
True enough.
I’ll offer one last opinion: If you want the practice of jean-day to end, then go to HR. I suspect that they will not only stop the TFT fund raiser, but all of it. Unfortunately the few can ruin it for the many. HR will view it as too much headache, too much risk of law suits and simply make a rule that jean day is over.
I am an agnostic myself. I donate blood every three months. I don’t lose sleep wondering if it will be used for a Christian. I am also pro-choice, and I don’t worry obsessively if it will be used for someone that pickets at the Planned Parenthood clinic. I only care that it will be useful to someone, somewhere. It’s a gift, use it as you see fit. Because I like to help my fellow man/woman/child.
I donate wildly to programs such as TFT and the Angel Tree. Why? Because most children in the US anticipate toys on Christmas. And many families cannot afford “Christmas”. I get a glow thinking about making a child’s day (Hey, Santa loves me too, even though we’re poor!) I would not begrudge a child a slice of happiness over my personal beliefs.
Face it, it’s become a National Holiday and a retailer’s dream. Christmas is a tradition to many in the US, just as Thanksgiving has become a tradition. I don’t mean to degrade the values of those that hold Christmas Day in the original spirit it was intended. I take my hat off to them, for remaining steadfast in their beliefs, against the ever-swelling tide of RETAIL! I also donate because I remember being a child (in the fifties and sixties) and Christmas was the bee’s knees. It was a special season, with many fond memories and good works, and I continue that tradition to this day.
I can’t see going to HR over this issue. It’s a donation, not a mandate. Donate or don’t, it’s your call. Do what you feel comfortable with.
