Atheism

We are arguing about the general correctness of the aphorism. I mentioned that it was a quote by Stephen Weinberg because it was.

To give another example, Voltaire allegedly said something like “I disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” First of all, he probably said it in French (although he may have spoken some English having lived in England for a while) if he said it at all. Sometimes the quote is attributed to others.

Nonetheless, that aphorism is often quoted as one of the truest and noblest iterations of the human right to free expression and the obligation of all citizens of democratic societies to defend the right to express even the most unpopular opinions.

Most people who believe in human rights and democratic freedoms would say they agree with the general truth contained in that aphorism. But if you want to nitpick it ad infinitum, you could ask:

  • Would you therefore relinquish your right to sue someone who libels you and causes you to lose your job and family with false accusations?

  • Would you literally defend anyone’s freedom of speech “to the death”? If you saw the leader of the American Nazi Party spewing hatred and someone next to you was about to shoot him, would you really take the bullet for him and die, leaving behind a widowed spouse and motherless or fatherless children?

  • If you intercepted a written communication from one terrorist to another to carry out a terrorist act, would you limit the right of the terrorist to freely communicate by turning the document over to the police?

In my opinion, these are examples of ridiculous nitpicking, because what I personally infer when I use that quotation attributed to Voltaire is that we must defend freedom of speech with great vigour and determination even if (and **especially ** if) the person whose right we are defending is expressing an idea we dislike. Obviously there can be limits and exceptions, At the end of this post, I will tell you how I interpret the Weinberg quote.

But in answer to your question, Sarahfeena, I am not making any assumptions about what Weinberg meant, because it is really the aphorism we are discussing. Now, the first part of the aphorism fully admits that good and evil would exist even if there were no religion. The second part says that this fact notwithstanding, to get large numbers of normally good people to commit great evil and still think they are doing good, there is nothing as effective as a system of irrational, dogmatic belief. Over the centuries, the most pervasive and common forms of irrational, dogmatic beliefs that have allowed huge numbers of otherwise decent people to feel justified in doing great evil have been organized religions.

My inclusion of dogmatic belief systems like Naziism and Communism is very natural and justifiable. Take the following quote by Rudolph Hess from a June 1934 speech (emphasis mine):

“The National Socialism in all of us is anchored in uncritical loyalty, in the surrender to the Fürhrer that does not ask for the why in individual cases, in the silent execution of his orders. We believe that the Führer is obeying a higher call. . . . There can be no criticism of this belief.”

And of course, those who expressed disbelief in the sanctioned dogma under Stalin, Pol Pot or Hitler, were tortured and executed as surely as heretics were by organized religion a few centuries earlier.

Roman Catholics believe that God’s flesh can be eaten in a cracker and have killed untold numbers of people for denying this. Heinrich Himmler believed that Aryans had not evolved from an animal ancestor like other races, but had come to earth from a heavenly domain where they had been preserved in ice. Would you have cared to mock Himmler to his face for believing this? Would you have cared to mock Transubstantiation in front of Tomás de Torquemada ?

As Sam Harris says in “The End of Faith”, an excellent book I would recommend:

“At the heart of every totalitarian enterprise, one sees outlandish dogmas, poorly arranged, but working ineluctably like gears in some ludicrous instrument of death.” (op. cit, pg. 100).

So for what it is worth, Sarahfeena, here is the meaning I personally infer when I use Weinberg’s aphorism:

“Dogmatic irrational beliefs imposed in human communities (of which religion is the most common example) is certainly not responsible for all evil in the world. Perfectly rational persons untouched by dogmatic and irrational belief can and do frequently commit acts of great evil. But dogmatic, irrational beliefs, and especially organized religions, have an unrivaled ability to allow the commission of great evil, often over centuries, by large numbers of otherwise good and decent people, by offering them the illusion that they are doing good. They accomplish this by imposing and indoctrinating people in unprovable and unfalsifiable dogmas which have a remarkable power to endure and continue to justify evil actions because they are outside the realms of reason and logic, and therefore unassailable. And history is filled with countless, gruesome examples of this too numerous to catalogue here.”

But such a quote would be ridiculously long and unusable for most situations. The whole point of an aphorism is that it is short and succinct. In this sense, it leaves itself open to be “called” as Tomndeb likes to put it, because in being concise I suppose it compresses and generalizes the truth, and is ripe for being nitpicked to death by those who are uncomfortable with the essential truth it conveys.

I realize this is a long answer Sarahfeena (my freinds say I was vaccinated with a phonograph needle) :smiley: , but does it answer your question?

I never said you treated me unfairly, or attacked me, Cosmodan, although I would point out that “slink” is not a neutral or inoffensive word. If you disagree that religion and other dogmatic, religion-like belief systems have throughout history had an extraordinary and unrivaled ability to allow normally good people to do very evil things and call it good, you are welcome to your opinion.

I believe the Weinberg aphorism contains a basic truth, which is what an aphorism is supposed to do.

We could spend the next hundred years debating whether the Salem Witch trials, for example, were really motivated more by human greed and the desire to seize property from condemned witches, or whether they can be laid at the door of religion. We could repeat that debate 50,000 times for all the witches burned at the stake in Europe and Latin America, where witchcraft trials continued until the 1800s. But frankly, you and Tomndeb are the ones who took an aphorism whose general, overall accuracy is more or less evident to any student of history and started nit-picking it it to death. Is this because you object to the basic condemnation of religion that it contains? Perhaps, but I will not presume to read your inner motivations.

See my answer to Sarahfeena, above, for more information.

The way I see it, an aphorism should contain some kind of universal truth that is generally understood by everyone. The rather lengthy explanation you give above for what you read into it is most assuredly not universal…I take issue, as I believe Tomndebb would, with your very first sentence. For anyone to assume that Weinberg was talking about anything BUT religion (the other “dogmatic irrational beliefs” you speak of), is a rather large leap to my mind. And I DON’T happen to think it’s nitpicking to say so. Religion is one specific thing…a subset of these “dogmatic irrational beliefs,” if you will. In fact, “religion” is so specific a term, that I seriously doubt Weinberg had any intention for that one word to refer to this broader concept. Seems to me it would make more sense to use the broader term if he really wanted a true “aphorism,” that is, a universal truth that could be understood by all. So, far from being uncomfortable with the “truth” of it as you see it, my immediate reaction, as Tomndebb’s seems to be, is “well, gee, I can think of a million instances of good people doing bad things that don’t seem to be motivated by religion at all…so how in heck can that be right?”

When you quote a “universal aphorism” that you say is the best expression you can find of what you are trying to say, you have to expect that others may disagree with the fundamental “truth” of it.

Your example of “a stitch in time saves nine” is not applicable, because if you were going to have the same TYPE of argument over that saying, you would be addressing the universal philosophy of what is meant by it…not “nitpicking” over whether it saves 9 stitches or 10, but whether it is worthwhile to take care of small problems before they get to be big ones. I think most people would agree with that philosophy…but if someone didn’t, their argument would be about the universal truth of it, not how many stitches will actually be saved. For example, “well, I don’t know, is it worth the time taken to run around dealing with small problems, when I don’t even know if they will turn out to be big problems? I’ll let it go, and if it turns out to be a big problem, I’ll deal with it then…life is too short to worry about the small stuff.” We are debating the OVERALL UNIVERSALITY of the idea, not nitpicky details. I do not see Weinberg’s use of the word “religion” to be a similar nitpicky detail in the same vein of “9 stitches or 10,” by any means. I could rephrase the stitches aphorism to be “a stitch in time saves 10,” and while it wouldn’t be nearly as catchy, the ultimate meaning would be the same. Not so if you replace “religion” with “dogmatic irrational beliefs.”

Different dictionary, I guess. Mine says harangue is long and emotional and generally negative in tenor, nothing about noisy or pompous. (I have a variant that does use bombastic, but bombastic only refers to the mode of delivery and does not indicate that the matter conveyed is untrue or unimportant.)

You are welcome to my permission.
Look, you grabbed a perfectly silly “aphorism” that made an incorrect observation about the world and posted it as a Great Truth. You have now posted numerous long and emotional attempts to defend some portion of that flawed statement, finally coming down to a claim that it is just an aphorism and should not be the central point of the discussion. Seems to me you could have said that following my first post on the topic and moved on with your condemnation of religion. Had you done so, I would not have continued posting to this thread. As long as you are going to post silly statements as Truth and then twist and turn and bob and weave to, somehow, make them “true,” (as if the aphorism expressed most clearly the point you felt needed to be expressed most strongly), you are going to keep dragging me in to demonstrate that it is just a silly bumper sticker sentiment that deserves no special consideration in this August Forum.

(If you need to post aphorisms, try time-tested and reliable aphorisms:
Swallow a toad the first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Now there is an aphorism we can all get behind.)

“There is no point in flogging a dead horse.”

I have explained the fundamental truth of that saying every way I know how. If you still refuse to accept it, so be it. I am tired of explaining the obvious.

Here is an aphorism I just made up, so it is not old or time-tested. But I like it: “Just because a guy gets tired of flogging a dead horse and moves on does not mean he is wrong in his original position.”

Of course, it does not mean that he was originally right; he may have simply been stubbornly wrong.

Would you say it was more or less offensive than your sarcastic remark with multiple :rolleyes:? BTW…It’s Cosmos…with that 2nd S.

Actually Mr rational reason man, I’ve asked you specific questions about the point you raised which you have failed to address. When someone offers an opinion and then can’t really back it up and instead repeat it several times and call it obvious, I’m afraid I can’t give it much credence.

For it and you to be correct your above statement about religion being **unrivaled ** in that regard must be true. That is the thrust of the quote and what you claimed. You then included groups Weinburg did not include in an attempt to defend his quote. That in itself shows it to be untrue. The other thing that shows it to be untrue is a wee bit of the logic and reason you like to talk about. It seems to me, feel free to show me where I’m wrong, that any decent history student would say that nationalism was clearly the winner when it comes to groups of people finding justification for evil acts.

I’m sure folks like yourself who exhibit an obvious disdain for religious beliefs and a clear bias against them will rally to your “basic truth” . I’m always amused when atheists exhibit the same behavior patterns as believers. Isn’t humanity nifty.
The problem is that when you really examine the statement and put it’s truth value to the test, there isn’t any. My objection isn’t the basic condemnation of religion. I’ve already acknowledged many heinous acts. My objection is it’s blanket , and inaccurate condemnation of religion. My objection is that by itself, it’s a gross over simplification of an issue used to condemn a certain group. That is itself irrational as well as ignorant.

I’ve seen enough