# Atheism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288 "2013-02-04T04:58:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/221 "2013-02-05T16:07:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Actually, he’s got a point there (though most of his posts in this thread appear to be nutso). If ethics were empirical, we’d weigh everything on a utilitarian basis, but we don’t. He’s not saying that ethics aren’t empirical-he’s saying that an _atheist’s_ ethics aren’t empirical. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/222 "2013-02-05T16:12:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > He’s not saying that ethics aren’t empirical-he’s saying that an _atheist’s_ ethics aren’t empirical. Right. I’ll go further and even venture to say for some of you, your ethics are a rational response to a sadistic God. Sorry, Human Action, I didn’t mean to regress on you. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/223 "2013-02-05T16:18:36Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Right. I’ll go further and even venture to say for some of you, your ethics are a rational response to a sadistic God. Sorry, Human Action, I didn’t mean to regress on you. If God were sadistic, I would consider it my ethical duty to defy His actions at every opportunity. However, I can accept that the Lord is not compelled to behave in the manner His most sadistic followers would prefer, and I limit my opposition to being against those who spread hatred and ignorance in His name. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/224 "2013-02-05T16:18:55Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Right. I’ll go further and even venture to say for some of you, your ethics are a rational response to a sadistic God. Sorry, Human Action, I didn’t mean to regress on you. Sonofa_bitch_!, and we’re back to square one. _Atheists do not believe in gods, even sadistic gods._ Just a couple of posts ago you accepted the definition of “atheist” from [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com). What happened?? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/225 "2013-02-05T16:22:07Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’m not implying that you are unethical. All I’m saying is that your ethics didn’t stem from empiricism. I’d have to say that, almost by definition, someone not accepting the supernatural is far more likely to have their ethical position arise from a empirical standpoint. In essence “what hurts me will hurt others and is probably to be avoided” That “hurting others” can actually be observed. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/226 "2013-02-05T16:22:24Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Right. I’ll go further and even venture to say for some of you, your ethics are a rational response to a sadistic God. Can we all agree that empirical means “originating in or based on observation or experience” ? How are my deontological, libertarian ethics not based on my observatons and experiences? There’s an element of idealism, rationalism, and historicism as well, but everyone’s ethics are shaped by their observations and experiences, even religious folks. > [@pchaos](#): > > Sorry, Human Action, I didn’t mean to regress on you. Well, hope springs eternal. I’m not, nor have I ever, asked you to abandon your beliefs. In fact, I told you that if they made your life better, you should persist in them. However, you do need to be open to what other peoples’ beliefs actually are if you’re going to engage in these types of discussions. If you’re back to “atheists are just mad at God”, I don’t think you’ve gained anything from these threads. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/227 "2013-02-05T16:23:43Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Right. I’ll go further and even venture to say for some of you, your ethics are a rational response to a sadistic God. Sorry, Human Action, I didn’t mean to regress on you. Okay wait. So if ethics stem from God, and atheists are super-double-triple-secretly reacting to a sadistic God, then God is really shitty at creating ethics. You see, if God sets up ethics, he can only be sadistic by violating **the very ethical code God himself created**. So atheists would be judging God by the very standards that he judges everyone else by, rather than giving him a free pass. So, **even if you were right** about atheists reacting to a perceived sadistic god (which you’re not, by the way), they come off as following God’s ethical code in a more fair, rational, and reasonable manner than Christians do. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/228 "2013-02-05T16:33:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > He’s not saying that ethics aren’t empirical-he’s saying that an _atheist’s_ ethics aren’t empirical. I know, and I agree. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/229 "2013-02-05T16:36:40Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If you’re back to “atheists are just mad at God”, I don’t think you’ve gained anything from these threads. I’ll go back to F. Nietzsche, “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.” I participate in SDMB because by doing so, I make my faith in God stronger. Your arguments are interesting but they simply reinforce my belief in God. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/230 "2013-02-05T16:38:41Z")
When you said that you accepted the [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) definition of “atheist”, were you telling the truth, **pchaos**? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/231 "2013-02-05T16:44:13Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’ll go back to F. Nietzsche, “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.” > > I participate in SDMB because by doing so, I make my faith in God stronger. Your arguments are interesting but they simply reinforce my belief in God. Okay, but one doesn’t really have to do with the other. You know that, right? Like, you can still have a strong faith in God and believe that atheists don’t believe in him at all. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/232 "2013-02-05T16:46:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When you said that you accepted the [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) definition of “atheist”, were you telling the truth, **pchaos**? I accept that it is your definition. I’m a Christian who also thought God was sadistic at one time, but as I get older, I see the other side of Him. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/233 "2013-02-05T16:50:29Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’ll go back to F. Nietzsche, “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.” > > I participate in SDMB because by doing so, I make my faith in God stronger. Your arguments are interesting but they simply reinforce my belief in God. That’s fine, but when it comes to the beliefs of _others_, you need to be able to accept what those other beliefs are, or this is a meaningless enterprise. I don’t mean accept them as being truthful or well-thought-out or anything like that, but accept them as actual beliefs that others hold. > [@pchaos](#): > > I accept that it is your definition. I’m a Christian who also thought God was sadistic at one time, but as I get older, I see the other side of Him. So you were never an atheist, you were a misotheist for a while. That’s fine too, but some people are actually atheists. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/234 "2013-02-05T16:51:58Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’ll go back to F. Nietzsche, “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.” > > I participate in SDMB because by doing so, I make my faith in God stronger. Your arguments are interesting but they simply reinforce my belief in God. So you think I’m lying when I say “I don’t believe God exists”; you believe that I’m actually just mad at a God I think is sadistic? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/235 "2013-02-05T16:52:01Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I accept that it is your definition. I’m a Christian who also thought God was sadistic at one time, but as I get older, I see the other side of Him. In other words you did not tell the truth in order to get past that part of the conversation and make your point. Where in your Bible or your Christian teachings did you learn that “the ends justify the means” is ethical if conversing with non-Christians? ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/236 "2013-02-05T17:00:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you think I’m lying when I say “I don’t believe God exists”; you believe that I’m actually just mad at a God I think is sadistic? Not for you personally, I just think it’s a factor for some atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/237 "2013-02-05T17:00:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you think I’m lying when I say “I don’t believe God exists”; you believe that I’m actually just mad at a God I think is sadistic? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > In other words you did not tell the truth in order to get past that part of the conversation and make your point. Where in your Bible or your Christian teachings did you learn that “the ends justify the means” is ethical if conversing with non-Christians? I think he’s saying that he believes that we believe we don’t believe in god. But if we dig deep down into the veeeeery bottom of our hearts we’ll realize we believed God existed all along and will feel just **terrible** about fooling ourselves into believing we didn’t this whole time. ETA: Or not, I guess. This is confusing. I’ll grant that there’s almost certainly been an atheist (perhaps even several) that declared they didn’t believe in god when they were really mad at him. But I’m not sure I buy that even a significant number of them exist, if for no reason other than pretending you don’t believe in God is a great way to get yourself on a lot of the Christian majority’s shitlist. It seems easier, from a social standpoint, to just say you’re mad at him. I know hollywood likes to portray this fiction about atheists, but I know a lot of Atheists and find this is unfounded. Hell, I know a few **former** Atheists who acknowledge that they really, truly didn’t believe in God before they converted. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/238 "2013-02-05T17:01:58Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Not for you personally, I just think it’s a factor for some atheists. Ok, so you think some atheists are lying. How many? Any in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/239 "2013-02-05T17:04:43Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’m a Christian who also thought God was sadistic at one time, but as I get older, I see the other side of Him. This is the first time you have ever said you thought God was sadistic. In previous threads you’ve said you didn’t believe in God at all and said you were a leftist and maybe a Marxist. I think that you are either revising your beliefs with hindsight, or you’re making inaccurate claims about your own former beliefs for the sake of your current argument. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/240 "2013-02-05T17:15:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is the first time you have ever said you thought God was sadistic. In previous threads you’ve said you didn’t believe in God at all and said you were a leftist and maybe a Marxist. I think that you are either revising your beliefs with hindsight, or you’re making inaccurate claims about your own former beliefs for the sake of your current argument. Okay, I pretty much agree with Human Action. At one time I was a misotheist, but I’ve forgiven God and now I’m a Christian. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288.md?page=13)