# Atheism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288 "2013-02-04T04:58:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/261 "2013-02-05T18:22:05Z")
> [@koufax](#): > > So I would like to ask the people on here who consider themselves REAL atheists as defined by someone who does not believe in “god” (or whatever you want to call it), do you believe that physical matter came out of NOTHING with ABSOLUTELY NO FIRST CAUSE? I’ve answered this for you multiple times, with elaboration. What game is it that you’re playing? Not that your “No True Atheist eats his porridge with sugar!” logic isn’t convincing, but… well… it isn’t. You’ve had the definition of “atheist” explained to you already. The one and only thing it means is that someone lacks belief in a deity. There are gnostic atheists, and agnostic atheists. But they’re all atheists. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/262 "2013-02-05T18:22:16Z")
> [@koufax](#): > > So I would like to ask the people on here who consider themselves REAL atheists as defined by someone who does not believe in “god” (or whatever you want to call it), do you believe that physical matter came out of NOTHING with ABSOLUTELY NO FIRST CAUSE? I’m a real atheist and I have no idea where matter came from and I don’t care. > [@](#): > > Please answer with a simple “yes” if you believe this happened. > > If you answer with more than “yes” I doubt if you are a real atheist. Why do you doubt that someone who adds more to a “yes” to your question would be a “real” atheist? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/263 "2013-02-05T18:23:19Z")
> [@koufax](#): > > OP here again and I apologize for what I started although I have learned two new cool words… Misotheists and Dystheists. > > So I would like to ask the people on here who consider themselves REAL atheists as defined by someone who does not believe in “god” (or whatever you want to call it), do you believe that physical matter came out of NOTHING with ABSOLUTELY NO FIRST CAUSE? > > Please answer with a simple “yes” if you believe this happened. > > If you answer with more than “yes” I doubt if you are a real atheist. > > (Something tells me, I am going to regret this post) There is no such thing as “nothing”. And yes, you can regret your question, you get the QI alarm/klaxon: [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tRkAMESFnys/hqdefault.jpg "QI - Higgs boson and 'Nothing' Brilliantly Explained On A Game Show! - Would this happen in the USA") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRkAMESFnys) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/264 "2013-02-05T18:24:28Z")
> [@koufax](#): > > OP here again and I apologize for what I started although I have learned two new cool words… Misotheists and Dystheists. > > So I would like to ask the people on here who consider themselves REAL atheists as defined by someone who does not believe in “god” (or whatever you want to call it), do you believe that physical matter came out of NOTHING with ABSOLUTELY NO FIRST CAUSE? > > Please answer with a simple “yes” if you believe this happened. > > If you answer with more than “yes” I doubt if you are a real atheist. > > (Something tells me, I am going to regret this post) My answer is “I don’t know what caused the universe to exist, but I have no reason to believe that it was a God until evidence is presented that supports that conclusion. In the absence of this evidence, attributing the universe to a god is capricious and arbitrary.” ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/265 "2013-02-05T18:32:02Z")
> [@koufax](#): > > OP here again and I apologize for what I started although I have learned two new cool words… Misotheists and Dystheists. > > So I would like to ask the people on here who consider themselves REAL atheists as defined by someone who does not believe in “god” (or whatever you want to call it), do you believe that physical matter came out of NOTHING with ABSOLUTELY NO FIRST CAUSE? > > Please answer with a simple “yes” if you believe this happened. > > If you answer with more than “yes” I doubt if you are a real atheist. > > (Something tells me, I am going to regret this post) I don’t really know how the universe started. But, I am a real atheist. Doubt away. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/266 "2013-02-05T18:32:14Z")
> [@koufax](#): > > So I would like to ask the people on here who consider themselves REAL atheists as defined by someone who does not believe in “god” (or whatever you want to call it), do you believe that physical matter came out of NOTHING with ABSOLUTELY NO FIRST CAUSE? I think it’s possible. I assume by first cause you’re talking about a god or something else that (for reasons of magic) can exist without some sort of deliberate causation. Ultimately that’s just kicking the can down the road a step and explaining something by saying it’s inexplicable. That doesn’t work for me. > [@](#): > > If you answer with more than “yes” I doubt if you are a real atheist. What do you think they are? > [@](#): > > Something tells me, I am going to regret this post Because it’s wrong, you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/267 "2013-02-05T18:32:19Z")
> [@koufax](#): > > OP here again and I apologize for what I started although I have learned two new cool words… Misotheists and Dystheists. > > So I would like to ask the people on here who consider themselves REAL atheists as defined by someone who does not believe in “god” (or whatever you want to call it), do you believe that physical matter came out of NOTHING with ABSOLUTELY NO FIRST CAUSE? > > Please answer with a simple “yes” if you believe this happened. > > If you answer with more than “yes” I doubt if you are a real atheist. Doubt all you want. Atheists who acknowledge that “we don’t know, and it’s likely that we\* can’t\* know, what happened to cause the Big Bang, if anything” exist, whether you want to believe in them or not. The actual causes of the Big Bang have zip, zilch, fuckall to do with whether or not such a cause might be something you could call God. That’s two entirely different questions. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/268 "2013-02-05T18:35:16Z")
> [@koufax](#): > > OP here again and I apologize for what I started although I have learned two new cool words… Misotheists and Dystheists. > > So I would like to ask the people on here who consider themselves REAL atheists as defined by someone who does not believe in “god” (or whatever you want to call it), do you believe that physical matter came out of NOTHING with ABSOLUTELY NO FIRST CAUSE? > > Please answer with a simple “yes” if you believe this happened. > > If you answer with more than “yes” I doubt if you are a real atheist. > > (Something tells me, I am going to regret this post) Please give us your definition of “Real Atheist” so that we’re all on the same page. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/269 "2013-02-05T18:39:52Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’m not implying that you are unethical. All I’m saying is that your ethics didn’t stem from empiricism. Where do your ethics stem from? Not from a god, surely; after all, you’re still the one who had to decide whether to obey or disobey that god. How did you make that decision? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/270 "2013-02-05T18:40:33Z")
I have no way to compare the total energy content of this universe with that of all possible universes, so I have no way to tell if this is a small or short-term event. As far as I know this entire Unverse we are experiencing is a minor blip of a particle lasting for a nano-time-period of a larger “universe” and it just looks big and old to us because we are stuck inside it. Human scales are misleading when trying to understand anything really big. Oh, I am a theist who believes the universe was created and is sustained through the will of a deity. I just don’t think that knowing or not knowing the exact mechanisms of that origin makes much difference in my life. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/271 "2013-02-05T18:42:20Z")
> [@koufax](#): > > OP here again and I apologize for what I started although I have learned two new cool words… Misotheists and Dystheists. > > So I would like to ask the people on here who consider themselves REAL atheists as defined by someone who does not believe in “god” (or whatever you want to call it), do you believe that physical matter came out of NOTHING with ABSOLUTELY NO FIRST CAUSE? > > Please answer with a simple “yes” if you believe this happened. > > If you answer with more than “yes” I doubt if you are a real atheist. > > (Something tells me, I am going to regret this post) 1. First Cause =/= God (necessarily, chances are even less if you specifically mean YOUR god) 2. We don’t know, and likely can’t know for sure if there WAS a first cause, and if there was, what that cause was. 3. There are two types of atheism: strong and weak. Weak atheists simply believe the null hypothesis: they assume no god exists because of insufficient evidence. 99% of atheists are weak atheists. Strong atheists are the type you’re talking about – they claim they know for certain that gods don’t exist, they have as strong a burden of proof as theists and you’d be right in challenging them. Unfortunately, nobody you’re arguing with here is actually one of these people. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/272 "2013-02-05T18:47:17Z")
Of course, before you ask an atheist whether or not gods exist, it is only proper that you first give as thorough a definition of gods(NOT “God”) as is possible, otherwise the question is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/273 "2013-02-05T18:50:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Of course, before you ask an atheist whether or not gods exist, it is only proper that you first give as thorough a definition of gods(NOT “God”) as is possible, otherwise the question is nonsense. Ah, yes, this is called “Ignatheism” (aka “common sense”). I’ve witnessed so many nonsensical gotchas where some Christian-suddenly-cum-pantheist says “well, God is THE UNIVERSE so HA”. It’s kind of hard to disbelieve God when it’s defined as “the Universe” unless you’re willing to jump through some philosophical hoops. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/274 "2013-02-05T18:52:45Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Weak atheists simply believe the null hypothesis: they assume no god exists because of insufficient evidence. No assumptions are made. Weak atheism is simply the absence of belief in any gods. That definition also defines all atheists. Strong atheists just take it a step further. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/275 "2013-02-05T19:06:14Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > No assumptions are made. Weak atheism is simply the absence of belief in any gods. That definition also defines all atheists. Strong atheists just take it a step further. I consider what you said and what I said roughly interchangeable. “I lack belief in god until proven otherwise” seems like an assumption to me. For reference, I would also word my lack of belief in spligorknigas, a thing I just made up, in terms of “assumption” – so there’s no need to be aware of the thing you assume doesn’t exist if that was your objection to my wording. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/276 "2013-02-05T19:07:21Z")
> [@koufax](#): > > If you answer with more than “yes” I doubt if you are a real atheist. Do you understand, on any level, that atheism is not an “alternative religion” that must have a set of fixed tenets that match up against religious tenets? Do you understand that atheism is not a belief system, but the absence of a belief system? Do you understand that as an atheist - very probably a “real” atheist by any standard you could devise - I do not have some hole, gap, or missing part I need to fill with some equivalent of religion and religious belief? Or (as is increasingly evident) do you understand nothing but the fixed question you have asked with a fixed answer in mind, and resist everything you’re being told that conflicts with that set answer? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/277 "2013-02-05T19:08:17Z")
> [@koufax](#): > > OP here again and I apologize for what I started although I have learned two new cool words… Misotheists and Dystheists. > > So I would like to ask the people on here who consider themselves REAL atheists as defined by someone who does not believe in “god” (or whatever you want to call it), do you believe that physical matter came out of NOTHING with ABSOLUTELY NO FIRST CAUSE? > > Please answer with a simple “yes” if you believe this happened. > > If you answer with more than “yes” I doubt if you are a real atheist. > > (Something tells me, I am going to regret this post) My answer is “I don’t know”. If you still doubt that I am a “real atheist”, then it’s because you do not understand what the term “atheist” means. All it means is that I don’t believe in god. It doesn’t imply certainty, and it doesn’t imply anything about my world view beyond a lack of belief in supernatural beings. ---
**Author:** ![koufax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@koufax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koufax)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/278 "2013-02-05T19:08:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Please give us your definition of “Real Atheist” so that we’re all on the same page. Someone who does not believe “god” exists AT ALL and matter came out of nothing. Not someone who is not sure or doesn’t care or is waiting for the evidence. And my definition of “god” is the PRIMARY CAUSE of all matter. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/279 "2013-02-05T19:10:35Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > “I lack belief in god until proven otherwise” seems like an assumption to me. You’re saying it’s an assumption that no gods exist. Then what’s your definition of a strong atheist? It’s the strong atheist that goes a step further and makes the assumption. Lacking belief is not an assumption. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/280 "2013-02-05T19:12:08Z")
> [@koufax](#): > > Someone who does not believe “god” exists AT ALL and matter came out of nothing. Then your definition of “atheist” is wrong, and I reject your authority to change the already-accepted real definition. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288.md?page=15)