# Atheism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288 "2013-02-04T04:58:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/541 "2013-02-27T00:27:18Z")
> [@For You](#): > > . . . Existence just is. Kind of like the aspirin I now need for the headache these thoughts are giving me. That headache is exactly why I so love these discussions! It hurts…but it hurts in a really cool, weird, mind-blowing kinda way. It’s a cheap high! ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/542 "2013-02-27T03:50:19Z")
> [@For You](#): > > For dealing with reality, we also have drugs. Meh. Reality is for those who can’t handle drugs… ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/543 "2013-02-27T03:58:39Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Existence just is. Kind of like the aspirin I now need for the headache these thoughts are giving me. Wash 'em down with a bit of booze. Makes the ideas go down like “a spoon full of sugar”. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/544 "2013-04-16T14:25:34Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I’ve served on three criminal juries here in Texas, and I’ve never been asked to swear “so help me God,” nor has the oath/affirmation had any religious language at all. Last week I had to finally serve on a TX jury. At least in Wichita county, they still swear in witnesses and jurors with the “so help me God.” At least they didn’t use bibles. I wasn’t going to make a big deal out of the “so help me God” phrase, for me it was just a metaphor. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/545 "2013-04-17T14:58:11Z")
> [@koufax](#): > > I am trying to find videos on you tube or anywhere for that matter that can explain how someone can actually be a REAL atheist. > > All I can seem to find is “atheists” who point out how ridiculous most religious teachings are (which I completely agree with) but they don’t seem to explain how they believe that matter just came out of nothing with no cause. > > I consider myself a Deist because I cannot get rid of the belief that something caused all of this, even though it doesn’t care about its creation and allows everything to happen randomly. > > So, are there, in fact REAL atheists who believe that life and matter just occurred out of nothing or are these “atheists” like me and are in fact Deists? How can there be no cause to the universe we live in. It is not logical. Some may say it was caused by accident while others believe it was caused by a consciousness that knew what it was doing. Since consciousness existed before me (a consciousness) it is necessary to believe the whole thing was started by consciousness. Randomness cannot produce consciousness. For those who believe it could then where did randomness go after it produced consciousness. If this universe were random now it would destroy itself in a couple of hours. We live in a controlled environment. Not too hot or too cold, etc. The universe is run by a higher intelligence or consciousness. People have tried for centuries to explain this through religion and science without success. So there is a God or Creator none of us know very well. So we end up describing a God not understanding we are a part of that God. But we are learning day by day. It is us. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/546 "2013-04-17T15:04:15Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > How can there be no cause to the universe we live in. It is not logical. A quibble, but a pointed quibble: “logical” is NOT the same as “makes sense to me”. And that seems to be the only point you are making - that it doesn’t make sense to **you**. A wrong argument can still be logical if it proceeds so from its postulates. Those postulates may or may not themselves make sense to **you** (or you may simply not accept them) but that does not make them _a priori_ logical or illogical. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/547 "2013-04-17T15:06:53Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > How can there be no cause to the universe we live in. It is not logical. Some may say it was caused by accident while others believe it was caused by a consciousness that knew what it was doing. Since consciousness existed before me (a consciousness) it is necessary to believe the whole thing was started by consciousness. Randomness cannot produce consciousness. For those who believe it could then where did randomness go after it produced consciousness. If this universe were random now it would destroy itself in a couple of hours. We live in a controlled environment. Not too hot or too cold, etc. The universe is run by a higher intelligence or consciousness. People have tried for centuries to explain this through religion and science without success. So there is a God or Creator none of us know very well. So we end up describing a God not understanding we are a part of that God. But we are learning day by day. It is us. Asked many times before. Answered many times before. Fighting _deliberate_ ignorance is just a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![pjnlsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@pjnlsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjnlsn)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/548 "2013-04-18T06:02:10Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > How can there be no cause to the universe we live in. It is not logical. Some may say it was caused by accident while others believe it was caused by a consciousness that knew what it was doing. Since consciousness existed before me (a consciousness) it is necessary to believe the whole thing was started by consciousness. Randomness cannot produce consciousness. For those who believe it could then where did randomness go after it produced consciousness. If this universe were random now it would destroy itself in a couple of hours. We live in a controlled environment. Not too hot or too cold, etc. The universe is run by a higher intelligence or consciousness. People have tried for centuries to explain this through religion and science without success. So there is a God or Creator none of us know very well. So we end up describing a God not understanding we are a part of that God. But we are learning day by day. It is us. Some scientists have suggested a reason for the universe existing at all, or the criteria for it being allowed to exist, which involve fairly abstract concepts which could be described as “there not being a cause,” as commonly thought of. In any case, bottom line, a deity being responsible for anything, or existing at all, is the least likeliest of all explanations, if we’re talking about comparing even the frontiers of science to religion. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/549 "2013-04-18T12:28:44Z")
> [@pjnlsn](#): > > Some scientists have suggested a reason for the universe existing at all, or the criteria for it being allowed to exist, which involve fairly abstract concepts which could be described as “there not being a cause,” as commonly thought of. > > In any case, bottom line, a deity being responsible for anything, or existing at all, is the least likeliest of all explanations, if we’re talking about comparing even the frontiers of science to religion. I know what scientists have said about the beginning of the universe. But no one will get me to believe you can have an event without a cause. If something happens there was a reason for it even if we don’t know what that reason was. I know how obscure the field of science can be when they want to justify research. Merely sidestepping a Creator is not good reasoning to me. It is only a way to justify themselves as the highest knowledge. It doesn’t work. There are so many events here on earth than science can’t explain and never will on the course they have taken. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/550 "2013-04-18T13:44:29Z")
I would venture to suggest that you don’t know anything about the field of science. Good to have you back, though. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/551 "2013-04-18T14:10:11Z")
[Stephen Hawking’s latest](http://science.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/17/17797756-stephen-hawking-lays-out-case-for-big-bang-without-god?lite) at Caltech this last Tuesday. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/552 "2013-04-18T14:13:03Z")
Whatever explanation you think works for the creation of the “creator” also works for the creation of the universe. The latter is just simpler. Why insist on the former? ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/553 "2013-04-18T14:14:04Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Merely sidestepping a Creator is not good reasoning to me. There seems to be an infinite number of them that have been invented, but isn’t good enough reason either, explains nothing, and gets us no where. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/554 "2013-04-18T14:25:21Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > But no one will get me to believe you can have an event without a cause. If something happens there was a reason for it even if we don’t know what that reason was. Isn’t “an event without a cause” exactly what God is? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/555 "2013-04-18T15:18:50Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Whatever explanation you think works for the creation of the “creator” also works for the creation of the universe. > > The latter is just simpler. Why insist on the former? The apologist William Lane Craig, when confronted with this, starts babbling with philosophical terms like contingent and necessary, and efficient causes. It’s clear to me that all this is meant to obfuscate the matter to the layman. Basically, he claims that the universe is contingent, meaning that it doesn’t have to exist, and by his definition any contingent entity needs a cause. Then he just asserts that God is not a contingent being (it’s a “necessary” being) so is free from the rule about needing a cause. It’s all fancy language that sounds to the uneducated like he’s addressing the question, but he doesn’t address it at all. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/556 "2013-04-18T15:55:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I would venture to suggest that you don’t know anything about the field of science. Good to have you back, though. Thanks, I have the same problem with science that I have with religion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/557 "2013-04-18T16:01:25Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Thanks, I have the same problem with science that I have with religion. Though you use terms from both with wild abandon, you have absolutely no understanding of either one? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/558 "2013-04-18T16:06:15Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > … he claims that the universe is contingent, meaning that it doesn’t have to exist … So he basically outright lies? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/559 "2013-04-18T16:11:58Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Isn’t “an event without a cause” exactly what God is? The standard answer to this is that “God has always existed.” You can not tell me how the universe began any more than I can tell you how God began. I am willing to say “I don’t know” if you are. I do know there is a higher intelligence or consciousness than I am. I know that by experience. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/560 "2013-04-18T16:14:47Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > The apologist William Lane Craig, when confronted with this, starts babbling with philosophical terms like contingent and necessary, and efficient causes. It’s clear to me that all this is meant to obfuscate the matter to the layman…It’s all fancy language that sounds to the uneducated like he’s addressing the question, but he doesn’t address it at all. Theology in a nutshell. Never define your terms of reference clearly, never use one word when a dozen will do, always leave yourself wiggle room and remember…a circular argument is a happy argument! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288.md?page=29)