# Atheism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288 "2013-02-04T04:58:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/561 "2013-04-18T16:15:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Though you use terms from both with wild abandon, you have absolutely no understanding of either one? Never considered it wild abandon but if it works for you, why not. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/562 "2013-04-18T16:16:12Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The standard answer to this is that “God has always existed.” You can not tell me how the universe began any more than I can tell you how God began. I am willing to say “I don’t know” if you are. I do know there is a higher intelligence or consciousness than I am. I know that by experience. So why the worry about accepting that a universe or universes have always existed? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/563 "2013-04-18T16:30:22Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am willing to say “I don’t know” if you are. Are we talking about religious people here? Would they be willing to express doubt? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/564 "2013-04-18T20:23:11Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > So why the worry about accepting that a universe or universes have always existed? Because they haven’t always existed. Not by science anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/565 "2013-04-18T20:26:01Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Are we talking about religious people here? Would they be willing to express doubt? Probably no more than science people. All these orgs are very much alike. The knowledge is there for those who ask. It is never there for those who know. ---
**Author:** ![pjnlsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@pjnlsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjnlsn)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/566 "2013-04-18T20:32:06Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I know what scientists have said about the beginning of the universe. But no one will get me to believe you can have an event without a cause. If something happens there was a reason for it even if we don’t know what that reason was. I know how obscure the field of science can be when they want to justify research. Merely sidestepping a Creator is not good reasoning to me. It is only a way to justify themselves as the highest knowledge. It doesn’t work. There are so many events here on earth than science can’t explain and never will on the course they have taken. The suggestion isn’t that there’s no reason for the universe existing as it does, but that it might take place in a different context as far as cause and effect goes. It’s just that ignorant and usually religious people make this out to be something than it is (no offense.) The real requirement is not that there be a cause and an effect but that there be a reason. For example, one can imagine a strange universe in which effect follows cause. In any case, even the frontiers of science are more likely than a deity existing. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/567 "2013-04-18T20:37:57Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The standard answer to this is that “God has always existed.” You can not tell me how the universe began any more than I can tell you how God began. I am willing to say “I don’t know” if you are. I do know there is a higher intelligence or consciousness than I am. I know that by experience. I can say “the universe has always existed, in some form”. Who’s right? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/568 "2013-04-18T20:45:59Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > [Stephen Hawking’s latest](http://science.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/17/17797756-stephen-hawking-lays-out-case-for-big-bang-without-god?lite) at Caltech this last Tuesday. Misses the point as usual. There is a problem of existence itself. And it’s true that positing a God does not in any way solve that problem. But nor does saying that time is eternal, cyclical, or “finite but unbounded”. Given that metaphysical reality, I’m not sure what new realization he believes he has come to. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/569 "2013-04-18T20:59:40Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Probably no more than science people. All these orgs are very much alike. > > The knowledge is there for those who ask. It is never there for those who know. Fortune cookie “wisdom”. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/570 "2013-04-18T21:46:27Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I do know there is a higher intelligence or consciousness than I am. I know that by experience. Well, that’s exactly the kind of thing that would make me change my mind, so please elaborate. How does this higher intelligence manifest itself, and how is it that you know about it, while so many others who have looked for it haven’t found it? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/571 "2013-04-19T00:23:25Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Well, that’s exactly the kind of thing that would make me change my mind, so please elaborate. How does this higher intelligence manifest itself, and how is it that you know about it, while so many others who have looked for it haven’t found it? The experience has been contested on this board however it is a true experience called the near death experience. More than 10 million have had this experience in the U.S. I have never doubted the reality of standing in the presence of a higher intelligence. That was 25 years ago but as clear today. I am in contact with that intelligence all the time. It is a sure anchor in this world of troubles. ---
**Author:** ![pjnlsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@pjnlsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjnlsn)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/572 "2013-04-19T00:33:31Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The experience has been contested on this board however it is a true experience called the near death experience. More than 10 million have had this experience in the U.S. I have never doubted the reality of standing in the presence of a higher intelligence. That was 25 years ago but as clear today. I am in contact with that intelligence all the time. It is a sure anchor in this world of troubles. The benefits of religion are fairly obvious, but as far as there actually being a god, rather than it being in your mind, the insubstantial nature of the concept (of the entity) makes it far less likely than basically anything else. And, of course, it’s not even close to being proven, in any form. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/573 "2013-04-19T00:50:03Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The experience has been contested on this board however it is a true experience called the near death experience. More than 10 million have had this experience in the U.S. I have never doubted the reality of standing in the presence of a higher intelligence. That was 25 years ago but as clear today. I am in contact with that intelligence all the time. It is a sure anchor in this world of troubles. He went to bed at home, had a bad dream, then woke up. He wasn’t in the hospital and/or diagnosed by a doctor before, during or after his “experience”, and no doctor was involved with his self-diagnosis of “near death”. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/574 "2013-04-19T00:57:18Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The experience has been contested on this board however it is a true experience called the near death experience. More than 10 million have had this experience in the U.S. I have never doubted the reality of standing in the presence of a higher intelligence. That was 25 years ago but as clear today. I am in contact with that intelligence all the time. It is a sure anchor in this world of troubles. When you say you are in contact with that intelligence, do you mean that it’s like the Star Trek computer that you can ask questions and get factual answers, or do you only mean that it gives you a feeling of well-being? Because if it’s the latter, that sounds more like something happening inside your brain, than an external intelligence. People who use mind-altering drugs often report feelings of ecstasy and great power and oneness with the universe, but that is clearly a delusion caused by the drugs. I’m not saying that’s identical to what is happening in religious people who report such ecstasy, but it does show that such feelings can be produced chemically, and therefore it suggests that although they may be experiencing something that is not fully understood by science, it is not necessarily an external intelligence. Have you ever tried asking this intelligence a factual question that you could not possibly know? Something trivial, like the name and birth date of the current President of Gabon? If you say you are unwilling to perform such an experiment, then IMO you severely damage your credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/575 "2013-04-19T01:25:26Z")
Anyway, back to the actual topic of this thread(which _isn’t_ **lekatt’s** dream interpretations). > [@razncain](#): > > Last week I had to finally serve on a TX jury. At least in Wichita county, they still swear in witnesses and jurors with the “so help me God.” At least they didn’t use bibles. I wasn’t going to make a big deal out of the “so help me God” phrase, for me it was just a metaphor. Did they offer an alternate vow? ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/576 "2013-04-19T01:39:11Z")
That’s one thing I finds strange with some fellow-atheists. An oath is a simple religious rite, adapted to a secular proceeding. How does it affect one who doesn’t believe there’s a God? It shouldn’t. Atheists should have few issues with religion. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/577 "2013-04-19T02:00:19Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > That’s one thing I finds strange with some fellow-atheists. An oath is a simple religious rite, adapted to a secular proceeding. How does it affect one who doesn’t believe there’s a God? By making an atheist who takes oaths seriously feel like they are taking a _false_ oath, and feeling angry and humiliated by being coerced into swearing by something they don’t believe in. > [@the\_diego](#): > > Atheists should have few issues with religion. Don’t be ridiculous. Religion is constantly shoved in our face and followed by people who hate us. The believers are constantly trying to write their delusions into law and sending the nation in stupid and evil directions. There’s plenty of reasons for atheists to have “issues” with religion. ---
**Author:** ![Molesworth\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9dc877/32.png) [@Molesworth\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Molesworth_2)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/578 "2013-04-19T04:01:35Z")
The only thing more improbable than the Universe springing into being out of nothing is a “god” springing into being out of nothing and then creating the Universe. One of these two scenarios includes an unnecessary middle-man. If you can’t explain how “god” came into existence then you have no business denying atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/579 "2013-04-19T04:06:04Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > That’s one thing I finds strange with some fellow-atheists. An oath is a simple religious rite, adapted to a secular proceeding. How does it affect one who doesn’t believe there’s a God? It shouldn’t. Atheists should have few issues with religion. “Do you swear to tell the truth, so help you God” “Yes” (later)“About your testimony, sir-Did you or did you not swear to tell the truth, so help you God?” “Yes” “Isn’t it true that you are an atheist, and thus do not believe in God at all?” “Ummm…yes.” “So when you swore to tell the truth, you were lying, weren’t you?” ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/580 "2013-04-19T06:07:17Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I do know there is a higher intelligence or consciousness than I am. I know that by experience. > [@lekatt](#): > > The knowledge is there for those who ask. It is never there for those who know. :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288.md?page=30)