# Atheism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288 "2013-02-04T04:58:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/41 "2013-02-04T14:43:21Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Nope, that’s wrong. > They are created out of quantum vacuum fluctuations, as I said. Can you point me to a cite that explains that in detail? From what I’ve read, I thought quantum physics was mum of “creation”, just that particles would pop in, i.e., relocate. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/42 "2013-02-04T14:48:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This is not a silly position to hold; it’s the same way I felt when I was younger (and also described myself as a deist). The problem with this position is that something must have caused the something that caused the universe to exist. And something else must have caused the something that caused the something, and so on, _ad infinitum_. If you can’t accept a natural, random (though not fully explained) origin for the universe, you can’t accept one for whatever you think created the universe either. That way it sits in my head is that cause and effect mandate what happens in the natural world. To stop the turtling down, there must have been something not subject to those rules, something super-natural. Something God-like. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/43 "2013-02-04T14:53:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Can you point me to a cite that explains that in detail? They most certainly do not “relocate”, any site which told you that is not to be relied upon at all. [ > [@](#): > > Although the Casimir force seems completely counterintuitive, it is actually well understood. In the old days of the classical mechanics the vacuum was what remained when emptied a container of all its particles and lowered temperature down to absolut ezero. The arrival of quantum mechanics, however, completely changed our notion of a vacuum. All fields – in particular electromagnetic fields – have fluctuations. The vacuum is not really empty. It is filled with virtual particles, which are in a continuous state of fluctuation. Virtual particle-antiparticle pair can be created from vacuum and annihilated back to vacuum. ]([http://www.hep.caltech.edu/~phys199/lectures/lect5\_6\_cas.pdf](http://www.hep.caltech.edu/~phys199/lectures/lect5_6_cas.pdf)) [ > [@](#): > > The experiment is based on one of the most counterintuitive, yet, one of the most important principles in quantum mechanics: that vacuum is by no means empty nothingness. In fact, the vacuum is full of various particles that are continuously fluctuating in and out of existence. They appear, exist for a brief moment and then disappear again. Since their existence is so fleeting, they are usually referred to as virtual particles ]([Light created from a vacuum: Casimir effect observed in superconducting circuit | ScienceDaily](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111118133050.htm)) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/44 "2013-02-04T14:54:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > That way it sits in my head is that cause and effect mandate what happens in the natural world. To stop the turtling down, there must have been something not subject to those rules, something super-natural. Something God-like. That’s fine for you to believe, but it’s not logically necessary, and obviously atheists don’t believe it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/45 "2013-02-04T14:56:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > That’s what Colibri said, no? > > The question is one’s position on the existence of God, a Creator. And it seems to me that what Colibri offered here describes an agnostic. I don’t think so- I think Colibri is saying “I don’t believe in God, but I’m not certain as to how the universe got started”. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/46 "2013-02-04T15:00:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > That’s what Colibri said, no? > > [Quote= > Colibri ] > > But just because we don’t know how it happened doesn’t mean the default assumption is that some supernatural being must have caused it. A lot of atheists are OK with leaving it at just that: we don’t know (but a supernatural being is much more complicated, and hence much more improbable, than some kind of natural process). The question is one’s position on the existence of God, a Creator. And it seems to me that what Colibri offered here describes an agnostic. [/QUOTE] No, \*\*Colibri \*\*'s statement doesn’t regard the existence of God but the explanation for a certain phenomenon. An atheist would say “I don’t know but I’m sure it’s not a god that caused it.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/47 "2013-02-04T15:03:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > That way it sits in my head is that cause and effect mandate what happens in the natural world. To stop the turtling down, there must have been something not subject to those rules, something super-natural. Something God-like. What does “God-like” mean, exactly? What attributes have to be there for it to fall into the category of “God-like”? ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/48 "2013-02-04T15:04:08Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Whom is this in response to? The OP certainly didn’t say anything about the Judeo-Christian God. Yes, the OP and yes, I did assume he was talking about the traditional God we all know and love since he calls himself a “Deist.” Until an atheist can prove with absolute certainty that the OP wasn’t talking about the one true Judeo-Christian God then I just have to believe he was. His desire to talk about his Deity didn’t just occur out of nothing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/49 "2013-02-04T15:06:12Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > An atheist would say “I don’t know but I’m sure it’s not a god that caused it.” I don’t think someone even needs to go that far to be considered an atheist. Though perhaps in the common sense of the word “sure”, it might fit- while I’m not 100% sure that Santa Claus didn’t create the universe, my level of conficence that it wasn’t Santa is exactly the same as my level of confidence that it wasn’t God (and it’s close enough to 100% that the difference is all but meaningless). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/50 "2013-02-04T15:09:12Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > That way it sits in my head is that cause and effect mandate what happens in the natural world. To stop the turtling down, there must have been something not subject to those rules, something super-natural. Something God-like. Yeah, but where did that God-like something come from? If our extant universe can’t just spring into being then why can a god-thing? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/51 "2013-02-04T15:10:37Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Yes, the OP and yes, I did assume he was talking about the traditional God we all know and love since he calls himself a “Deist.” Until an atheist can prove with absolute certainty that the OP wasn’t talking about the one true Judeo-Christian God then I just have to believe he was. His desire to talk about his Deity didn’t just occur out of nothing. This > [@koufax](#): > > I consider myself a Deist because I cannot get rid of the belief that something caused all of this, even though it doesn’t care about its creation and allows everything to happen randomly. doesn’t sound too Judeo-Christian Goddish to me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/52 "2013-02-04T15:12:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yeah, but where did that God-like something come from? If our extant universe can’t just spring into being then why can a god-thing? Because that which we have evidence for(the universe)can’t have always been here, but that which we have no evidence for(God) can. Can anyone lend me a Tylenol? ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/53 "2013-02-04T15:21:09Z")
As others have pointed out, this doesn’t explain a God being created out of nothing. I highly recommend PBS Nova program [Hunting the Edge of Space](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/search/results/?q=hunting+the+edge+of+space&x=19&y=16), Part I and II. You can watch it on-line for free or buy the DVD’s which is what I did. Physicists say our present understanding of physics and the science behind it allow for a quantum flluctuation that could have caused the BB. No God is necessary to get things going. They also explain that even in the best vacuum possible, no matter how empty that space may be, there is still something in it, and there is no true vacuum. With WMAP they can now give us the best accuracy ever before with the age of our universe with a figure of 13.77 billion years with .4% accuracy. > [@koufax](#): > > I am trying to find videos on you tube or anywhere for that matter that can explain how someone can actually be a REAL atheist. > > All I can seem to find is “atheists” who point out how ridiculous most religious teachings are (which I completely agree with) but they don’t seem to explain how they believe that matter just came out of nothing with no cause. > > I consider myself a Deist because I cannot get rid of the belief that something caused all of this, even though it doesn’t care about its creation and allows everything to happen randomly. > > So, are there, in fact REAL atheists who believe that life and matter just occurred out of nothing or are these “atheists” like me and are in fact Deists? ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/54 "2013-02-04T15:27:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think someone even needs to go that far to be considered an atheist. Though perhaps in the common sense of the word “sure”, it might fit- while I’m not 100% sure that Santa Claus didn’t create the universe, my level of conficence that it wasn’t Santa is exactly the same as my level of confidence that it wasn’t God (and it’s close enough to 100% that the difference is all but meaningless). Here’s the deal, atheists have managed to denigrate religion with many of it’s absurdities. But have they created an ethical system to replace it? Ayn Rand’s Objectivism at least attempted to build a new ethical system. Do atheists have anything similar? ---
**Author:** ![Pabitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Pabitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pabitel)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/55 "2013-02-04T15:28:42Z")
You, my friend, have found an exceptionally tiny gap to cram your god into. > [@](#): > > The term goes back to Henry Drummond, a 19th century evangelist lecturer, from his Lowell Lectures on the Ascent of Man. He chastises those Christians who point to the things that science can not yet explain—“gaps which they will fill up with God”—and urges them to embrace all nature as God’s, as the work of “… an immanent God, which is the God of Evolution, is infinitely grander than the occasional wonder-worker, who is the God of an old theology.” You are engaging in an age old theological meme. Namely that “god” is that, and only that, which has no explanation. The problem with this theology is that as science advances the gaps get progressively smaller, until, as in your case, there is only one tiny gap left and “god” is reduced to nothing but a cosmic spark plug. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/56 "2013-02-04T15:30:39Z")
> [@Pabitel](#): > > …cosmic spark plug. Band name. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/57 "2013-02-04T15:32:55Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Here’s the deal, atheists have managed to denigrate religion with many of it’s absurdities. But have they created an ethical system to replace it? > > Ayn Rand’s Objectivism at least attempted to build a new ethical system. Do atheists have anything similar? It’s called Humanism. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/58 "2013-02-04T15:37:07Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Here’s the deal, atheists have managed to denigrate religion with many of it’s absurdities. But have they created an ethical system to replace it? > > Ayn Rand’s Objectivism at least attempted to build a new ethical system. Do atheists have anything similar? All atheism is is the disbelief in god or gods. It isn’t a club, organization, social movement etc. As an individual that also happens to be an atheist I think that mankind came up with whatever ethical systems that have existed/do exist/will exist. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/59 "2013-02-04T15:40:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s called Humanism. Which is remarkably similar to standard Western religious ethics, only with less Divine Punishment, almost no “Kill the Unbelievers,” and a recognition that most of the Do-Unto-Others type directions actually are a pretty reasonable starting point for a social species. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288/60 "2013-02-04T15:40:21Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Here’s the deal, atheists have managed to denigrate religion with many of it’s absurdities. But have they created an ethical system to replace it? > > Ayn Rand’s Objectivism at least attempted to build a new ethical system. Do atheists have anything similar? As previously noted, “atheists” are simply people who don’t believe in a god or gods- they may not have much in common beyond that. As to an ethical system that meshes with atheism, Secular Humanism fits (also as previously noted). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheism/649288.md?page=4)