# "Atheist/Agnostic" as a religious category **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 21, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399 "2014-01-21T21:43:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/61 "2014-01-22T16:53:57Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > By the way, there was a while here on the SDMB when it seemed like any thread remotely about religion would eventually devolve into a debate over the nature of agnosticism vis a vis atheism. I remember that, but I think it’s generally referred to as “the entirety of the past 15 years.” 😃 > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > tigers were roaming the alleyways of Anstruther If I promise to credit you, may I please use that as the basis for the next short story? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/62 "2014-01-22T18:02:25Z")
> [@andros](#): > > IIf I promise to credit you, may I please use that as the basis for the next short story? Of course, try to work in a reference to fish and chips if you can as I recall them being pretty outstanding. In fact that’s maybe what attracted the tigers?..ah shit! I’m writing it for you now. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/63 "2014-01-22T21:09:03Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > These threads are endlessly tedious because they inevitably comprise a bunch of people talking past one another due to differing definitions of theist/atheist/agnostic. And it gets worse: there is not only insufficient consensus about what the words used to describe one’s beliefs with respect to the existence of gods mean, there is also just about no clear definition or consensus about what gods are anyway. > > My two cents: > > - Hard Atheists know for sure that the things that Theists believe to exist actually don’t exist. This is in spite of the fact that Theists can’t even define what these things are anyway. > > - Soft Atheists don’t have any belief in the existence of the things Theists believe to exist. Soft Atheists don’t have such beliefs because, amongst other reasons, Theists can’t even define what these things are anyway; You are confusing knowledge and belief here. In 40 years of discussing this on line I have run across only one atheist who claimed he could prove that gods don’t exist. Hard atheists believe that no gods exist, as opposed to just lacking belief. The inability of the theist to come up with a good description of God that holds up supports this. > [@](#): > > Personally, I think it’s all the Theists’ fault. Of course. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/64 "2014-01-22T21:15:04Z")
> [@weemart](#): > > it doesn’t matter if it’s an it or a him. It’s u who keeps dragging up the existence of God/god. What a terrible thing to do in a thread about atheism. No one, of course, ever mentions God in the big world outside. BTW, idiot, you are not texting here. Try to spell things out and use “you’re” properly in order to stop proving that you are illiterate. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/65 "2014-01-22T21:29:51Z")
I’m an atheist who accepts the possibility of the existence of nonhuman lifeforms with abilities so far beyond ours that they appear magical. I’ve not seen any evidence, mind you, and even if presented with such, I don’t think I’d be inclined toward worship, supplication or sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/66 "2014-01-22T22:27:59Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > I think it’s a great analogy and you’re right. You’ve changed my mind on this point. I really only want to stress what a big difference there is between thinking gods are plausible and thinking they’re not. What I said before goes beyond this and shouldn’t have. Thanks! Well, wasn’t this a nice exchange for the Pit? 🆒 Honestly, I kind of struggle with being agnostic. No way I could go to believer, but I don’t think I could go quite to atheist either, either because I want to cling to hope or because I don’t understand the universe well enough or something else, I don’t know. If I were a physicist, maybe I’d be an atheist. If we ever manage to create robots that have consciousness, I almost certainly would become an atheist because that would mean that the mysteries of the universe aren’t nearly as unknowable as I thought. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m an atheist who accepts the possibility of the existence of nonhuman lifeforms with abilities so far beyond ours that they appear magical. Okay, yeah. That’s a good way to put it. I could easily believe that, and that they AREN’T supernatural, but just seem supernatural to us. What exactly that would make them as far as we’re concerned, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/67 "2014-01-23T01:32:45Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > “Agnostic” is much more like any of the religions than it is like atheism. If you imagine that gods are even remotely plausible, it’s almost nothing to go right ahead and believe in them. Not so much. When one recognizes that religions are nothing more than massive con games, it’s kinda hard to work up a desire to believe in one. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/68 "2014-01-23T02:09:12Z")
> [@weemart](#): > > it doesn’t matter if it’s an it or a him. It’s u who keeps dragging up the existence of God/god. While no one doubts its existence, Cthulhu’s gender remains undefined. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/69 "2014-01-23T02:11:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m an atheist who accepts the possibility of the existence of nonhuman lifeforms with abilities so far beyond ours that they appear magical. > I’ve not seen any evidence, mind you, and even if presented with such, I don’t think I’d be inclined toward worship, supplication or sacrifice. Exactly, although if they hid most of the stars and rearranged the rest to spell out rather clearly “I’m here for the dolphins”, I’d certainly be impressed. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/70 "2014-01-23T02:39:47Z")
agnostic is not mutually exclusive with other religious categories. One could be a Christian Agnostic by believing that Christ was the Son of God and saved us all, but also believe simultaneously that God is unknowable/untestable. I used to consider myself a Christian Agnostic for a while. Now I am atheist agnostic. I would assume that pretty much all atheists are also agnostic, but there may be a few atheists who honestly believe that Gods are knowable/testable through empirical means, and have decided that none could possibly exist. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/71 "2014-01-23T03:54:12Z")
Between athiest and agnostic I wouldn’t be sure how to catergorize myself - and in practise I think that the difference is small enough in practise that it doesn’t really matter. I don’t believe in religion as it is practised by any of the major or minor faiths, but at the same time I do believe in the power of believing, and that the power of belief is sometimes god like. What would that make me? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/72 "2014-01-23T07:40:34Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m an atheist who accepts the possibility of the existence of nonhuman lifeforms with abilities so far beyond ours that they appear magical. We are lifeforms with powers so far beyond those of the people who wrote the Bible that they would seem magical. Things flying in the air, big things, without the flapping of wings. More musical instruments than they can imagine in a tiny box. Hell, we can apparently make the sun stand still over a battleground with some helicopters and searchlights. We can kill from a distance. Plus, iron chariots don’t bother us at all. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/73 "2014-01-23T09:46:10Z")
Let me see if I can wrap my head around this… An atheist is someone who states that there is no god. **weemart** believes there is such thing as an atheist, because by virtue of making the pronouncement “there is no such thing as god”, the speaker has admitted that god exists. Since if god didn’t exist, the atheist would never have said “I don’t believe in god” in the first place. With me so far? Okay. **weemart** tells us “there is no such thing as an atheist”. Therefore, by virtue of making the pronouncement that “there is no such thing as an atheist”, weemart has admitted that atheists exist. Did I get that right? It’s very confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/74 "2014-01-23T09:54:19Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Between athiest and agnostic I wouldn’t be sure how to catergorize myself - and in practise I think that the difference is small enough in practise that it doesn’t really matter. I start from the simplest point. I don’t have a definite belief in any god or gods - therefore I’m an atheist Trouble is, that really doesn’t tell anyone anything about what I do believe or what my worldview might be. I have to add more to that description for the sake of clarity. I am an atheist _ **but I do not make the claim that gods do not exist** _ It simply isn’t a question that has ever troubled me as there is simply no evidence…none…to suggest they do. I can’t say I’m definitely an agnostic as someone may come up with a definition of a deity about which knowledge is impossible. Then I’d have to say I was agnostic about that particular god. Seems like an awful lot of work though. Still, I don’t really have to worry about it until someone actually comes up with a usable definition. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/75 "2014-01-23T09:57:21Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > An atheist is someone who states that there is no god. No, not necessarily, A atheist may make that claim but others simply lack the belief and make no such definite, positive claim…like me. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/76 "2014-01-23T12:42:41Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > Sometimes when they categorize religions (in charts, on forms, et cetera) they include “Atheist/Agnostic” or “Agnostic/Atheist”. This threatens to explode my head. Just when I think I know all the ways our resident internet atheists can manufacture things to get pissed off about, something like this comes along. I suspect it won’t be long before one of them explains how a USA Today pie chart is a form of persecution. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/77 "2014-01-23T13:47:25Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > Just when I think I know all the ways our resident internet atheists can manufacture things to get pissed off about, something like this comes along. I suspect it won’t be long before one of them explains how a USA Today pie chart is a form of persecution. Do you understand that “agnostic” and “atheist” are two different things? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/78 "2014-01-23T14:04:58Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Do you understand that “agnostic” and “atheist” are two different things? Of course I do, you oversensitive moron. Do you understand that a slash can mean “or” and that charts frequently lump in two separate groups into the same category for ease of reading? Honestly, people letting themselves be offended by this is absurd. Racial demographic data will frequently have a category for “Native American / Alaskan Native”, but I don’t see Cherokee getting their panties in a bunch because they are lumped in the same category as Inuit. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/79 "2014-01-23T14:24:32Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > Of course I do, you oversensitive moron. Do you understand that a slash can mean “or” and that charts frequently lump in two separate groups into the same category for ease of reading? > > Honestly, people letting themselves be offended by this is absurd. Racial demographic data will frequently have a category for “Native American / Alaskan Native”, but I don’t see Cherokee getting their panties in a bunch because they are lumped in the same category as Inuit. Listen you stupid little monkey twit - I don’t care one way or the other about the pie chart - but you can bet that if it was “atheist/agnostic” and “theist/christian/muslim” that the other side would be in a much bigger uproar about it. There is a difference between the two items - lumnping them together suggests to the uneducated (you) that they are one and the same - that was the only point I was making, Go back to throwing feces. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/80 "2014-01-23T14:27:06Z")
To put it another way, this is like a lesbian being offended by “gay/lesbian/transgender” because lesbian and transgender are two different things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399.md?page=5)