# "Atheist/Agnostic" as a religious category **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 21, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399 "2014-01-21T21:43:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/81 "2014-01-23T14:31:38Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > **weemart** believes there is such thing as an atheist, because by virtue of making the pronouncement “there is no such thing as god”, the speaker has admitted that god exists. Since if god didn’t exist, the atheist would never have said “I don’t believe in god” in the first place. > > With me so far? > > Okay. **weemart** tells us “there is no such thing as an atheist”. Therefore, by virtue of making the pronouncement that “there is no such thing as an atheist”, weemart has admitted that atheists exist. Let me just add that a man who killed all the gods doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/82 "2014-01-23T14:42:03Z")
I’m a strong antitheist of the theological noncognitivist bent and I have no objections to being grouped with agnostics on a census form. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/83 "2014-01-23T15:27:02Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m a strong antitheist of the theological noncognitivist bent and I have no objections to being grouped with agnostics on a census form. Well, you’re a bigger man than I. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/84 "2014-01-23T16:18:13Z")
I don’t see why the inclusion of an “atheist/agnostic” category would be a problem, any more than “not applicable”. It doesn’t automatically suggest (though some theists are more than willing, indeed eager, to do so) that atheism is a religion. I do like to see those atheist numbers growing, I admit. It’s more satisfying than seeing an increase in “not applicable.” ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/85 "2014-01-23T18:52:44Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > They should differentiate between agnostics who believe you can’t know and those who just don’t give a shit. I’m an agnostic who doesn’t give a shit because you can’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/86 "2014-01-23T19:06:04Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Listen you stupid little monkey twit - I don’t care one way or the other about the pie chart - but you can bet that if it was “atheist/agnostic” and “theist/christian/muslim” that the other side would be in a much bigger uproar about it. > > There is a difference between the two items - lumnping them together suggests to the uneducated (you) that they are one and the same - that was the only point I was making, Your point might have been a little more persuasive if we hadn’t just seen a bunch of other posters claiming to be **both** atheist and agnostic. Clearly, there is quite a bit of overlap between the two categories when it comes to how people actually self-identify, so it doesn’t seem unreasonable on a survey form with limited space to lump them together. Personally, I think how such categories are organized on a questionnaire should depend only on what the questionnaire is trying to keep track of, rather than on anybody’s idea of the “proper” definition of, or distinction between, “atheist” and “agnostic”. For example, if the question is about whether you’re affiliated with any particular religious organization or tradition, the choices should be [ReligionName1], [ReligionName2],…, [ReligionNameN], Other, and None. What the people in the “None” category actually believe about the existence of deity/ies is irrelevant to this question. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/87 "2014-01-23T19:06:08Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I’m an agnostic who doesn’t give a shit because you can’t know. Three categories it is! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/88 "2014-01-23T20:28:49Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I start from the simplest point. > > I don’t have a definite belief in any god or gods - therefore I’m an atheist Perfect definition of a weak atheist. > [@](#): > > I am an atheist _ **but I do not make the claim that gods do not exist** _ It simply isn’t a question that has ever troubled me as there is simply no evidence…none…to suggest they do. I don’t think claims are important - only belief. I don’t claim that the unseeable god who never interacts with us doesn’t exist, because, as you say, that god is unknowable. I’m agnostic about that god also. But I believe it does not exist, since it seems silly - so I’m a strong atheist with respect to that god and all others. And I realize my belief might be incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![buckgully](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb9ed0/32.png) [@buckgully](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buckgully)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/89 "2014-01-23T20:59:10Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Let me just add that a man who killed all the gods doesn’t exist. But he _should_. In fact, that’s going near the top of next year’s NaNoWriMo possible subject list. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/90 "2014-01-24T00:00:29Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Let me just add that a man who killed all the gods doesn’t exist. I shot a god in Reno, Just to watch him die. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/91 "2014-01-24T00:23:59Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > They should differentiate between agnostics who believe you can’t know and those who just don’t give a shit. I fall into the latter category, or as I like to call it ‘Ag-whogivesafucktastic’\*. Slee \*I have decided that all new words ought to have ‘fucktastic’ appended to them. It makes them more Groovifucktastic. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/92 "2014-01-24T00:47:41Z")
> [@buckgully](#): > > But he _should_. See, by **weemart** ’s logic, the man who killed all the gods _does_ exist, and _must_ exist, because I said he _doesn’t_. I referred to his nonexistence, and so he exists. QED. (And it’s Batman; after all, Batman’s a fictional character – which means he’s real.) ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/93 "2014-01-24T05:48:53Z")
That’s it. With all the analysis of weewee logic, I’m changing my designation to Pastafarian. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/94 "2014-01-24T06:29:42Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I shot a god in Reno, > Just to watch him die. It reminded me of Lady Eboshi from [Princess Mononoke](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Mononoke): > [@](#): > > Lady Eboshi: Now watch closely, everyone. I’m going to show you how to kill a god. A god of life and death. The trick is not to fear him. And yes, she shots and kills the forest spirit! But it is implied in the end that the final “death” is just like nature dying at the end of the seasons and the god still lives and will eventually be reborn ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/95 "2014-01-24T09:42:22Z")
Personally, I’ve long believed that most “agnostics” are either atheists who are trying to avoid the heavily-demonized “atheist” label, or religious people who are _pretending_ to be agnostic as a rhetorical device in religious arguments. The latter is I feel the most plausible explanation for “agnostics” who argue exactly like Christians, take the exact same positions on religion as Christians, and _only_ seem “agnostic” about the Christian God but are outright disbelievers in any _other_ gods. Agnosticism is at best sucking up to religion anyway; people aren’t “agnostic” about _other_ implausible ideas. Just gods. I’m not an agnostic because I refuse to pretend that religion is anything other than blatant nonsense. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Let me just add that a man who killed all the gods doesn’t exist. How do you know? Seen any gods recently? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/96 "2014-01-24T10:23:29Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > weemart believes there is such thing as an atheist, because by virtue of making the pronouncement “there is no such thing as god”, the speaker has admitted that god exists. Since if god didn’t exist, the atheist would never have said “I don’t believe in god” in the first place. > > With me so far? > > Okay. weemart tells us “there is no such thing as an atheist”. Therefore, by virtue of making the pronouncement that “there is no such thing as an atheist”, weemart has admitted that atheists exist. Also, that would make him an “aatheistist”. > [@buckgully](#): > > But he _should_. > > In fact, that’s going near the top of next year’s NaNoWriMo possible subject list. Eh, you’ll have to work hard to beat the Saint of Killers as deity-slayers go. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/97 "2014-01-24T13:21:33Z")
You guys are ridiculous. I was not raised with religion, have never felt any pressure to be religious, and do not spend much time around religious people. Religion has never been a part of my life, so I’m not sure why I’d suck up to them now. I am ignostic/theological non-cognitivist. Basically, I think “Do you believe in god?” Is a stupid question, and I’m not going to bother with an answer about something so poorly defined. So why don’t you super atheists try believing what you believe, and stop trying to claim that you know what I believe better than I do? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/98 "2014-01-24T13:32:08Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Eh, you’ll have to work hard to beat the Saint of Killers as deity-slayers go. Paah, he’s only killed one (OK, Two if you count the Devil). Piker. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/99 "2014-01-24T15:32:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > people aren’t “agnostic” about _other_ implausible ideas. Sure they are. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399/100 "2014-01-24T15:46:54Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > I’ve always considered agnostics to be believers, just not in a widely accepted version of beliefs. Out of curiosity, why? Agnostics say that no one knows if a god of any kind exists. How do you get that we are believers of any kind from that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-agnostic-as-a-religious-category/679399.md?page=6)