# Atheist Bus Campaign **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2008, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270 "2008-10-23T23:04:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/61 "2008-10-28T14:24:20Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Not to speak for anyone else, but atheism isn’t a belief. It’s the LACK of a belief. I lack belief in god because I have no reason to think otherwise. And this point illustrates precisely why Dawkins’ Evangelical atheism is pernicious. He is turning it into a religion. As you can see people like **Der Trihs** start defending Science as if anyone is attacking science. Completely incapable of even staying in line with the argument that the other person is making. It leads to that sort of dogmatic nonthink in favor of atheism, which is of course directly in opposition to Dawkins stated goals. ---
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/62 "2008-10-28T14:25:01Z")
> [@Freyr](#): > > There’s a **BIG** difference between religion and mythology. Are you sure you know the difference? From this one sentence, I’m not sure you do. What is this BIG difference? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/63 "2008-10-28T14:43:20Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Again an atheist doesn’t know the difference between Science and Atheism. > [@](#): > > He contributes to the erroneous linking of science with atheism that has people opposing scientific education in schools because people can’t differentiate science from atheism. You can see by this very thread, that some of the posters have trouble with this distinction. > > So as a result, science comes under attack because people see it as atheism. > [@](#): > > And this point illustrates precisely why Dawkins’ Evangelical atheism is pernicious. He is turning it into a religion. As you can see people like Der Trihs start defending Science as if anyone is attacking science. Completely incapable of even staying in line with the argument that the other person is making. It leads to that sort of dogmatic nonthink in favor of atheism, which is of course directly in opposition to Dawkins stated goals. You are blowing this ‘science = atheism’ thing way out of proportion, if it even exists. **Der Trihs** used something in science as an example, his post had nothing to do with it. People aren’t opposing ‘scientific education’. They’re opposing evolution. No one is arguing against teaching geology or chemistry or physics. The reasons are well known, and they have nothing to do with Dawkins or anyone elses imagined conflation of science with athiesm. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/64 "2008-10-28T14:47:20Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > You are blowing this ‘science = atheism’ thing way out of proportion, if it even exists. We’ll see. All I see all over the net is people circling the wagons against this new trend of evangelical atheism as paraded about by such jerks as Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers. Like Daniel Dennett’s ever embarassing, “Brights”. > [@](#): > > **Der Trihs** used something in science as an example, his post had nothing to do with it. Well then maybe he’d like to explain why he used a non-sequitur that is a field of study open to atheists and religionists alike. I doubt he’ll have a good explanation. He’ll probably insist that it’s impossible for religious people to do science. ---
**Author:** ![ignoramus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@ignoramus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ignoramus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/65 "2008-10-28T15:24:53Z")
> [@5-HT](#): > > I’m an atheist, so that slogan makes perfect sense to me. However, I cannot imagine that campaign having any sort of positive effect. It would just be spun by the right as more evidence of the “war on christianity”. Remember this campaign is in London, so the majority of people who see it will be CoE, which is pretty much shorthand for agnostic anyway. We don’t really have that kind of ‘right’ here either. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/66 "2008-10-28T15:45:38Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > We’ll see. All I see all over the net is people circling the wagons against this new trend of evangelical atheism as paraded about by such jerks as Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers. Like Daniel Dennett’s ever embarassing, “Brights”. What does this mean? That religious people are getting defensive because atheism is suddenly taking the offense? Good. You’re offended because ‘jerks’ have the unmitigated gall to actually question your opinion? Too bad. For a long time now religious belief has demanded and received special treatment. Now that people are seeing that it does not deserve special treatment and are questioning it, suddenly you have to circle the wagons and defend your belief. I’ll say it again: good. > [@](#): > > Well then maybe he’d like to explain why he used a non-sequitur that is a field of study open to atheists and religionists alike. I doubt he’ll have a good explanation. He’ll probably insist that it’s impossible for religious people to do science. What are you talking about? He never said that religious people can’t study quantum physics. He said that your attribution of ‘mind bending’ to religious was false, that it was actually simple and primitive. He claimed that quantum physics was mind bending. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/67 "2008-10-28T15:57:33Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > What does this mean? That religious people are getting defensive because atheism is suddenly taking the offense? Good. You’re offended because ‘jerks’ have the unmitigated gall to actually question your opinion? Too bad. For a long time now religious belief has demanded and received special treatment. Now that people are seeing that it does not deserve special treatment and are questioning it, suddenly you have to circle the wagons and defend your belief. I’ll say it again: good. :dubious: If you think such vulgar and arrogant bozos are the kind of public face that most accurately portrays you and your beliefs, well then, I guess they’re perfect. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/68 "2008-10-28T15:59:55Z")
You think Quantum Physics in mind-bending? Well…Puppies are cute! ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/69 "2008-10-28T16:00:56Z")
It’s funny how even though you both agree with me that it’s easier to understand the idea that there is no God than to understand that there is a God, you’re still arguing with me. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/70 "2008-10-28T16:10:59Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > If you think such vulgar and arrogant bozos are the kind of public face that most accurately portrays you and your beliefs, well then, I guess they’re perfect. And if you think that’s anything but a ridiculous strawman argument, then maybe you should be thinking before posting. > [@](#): > > You think Quantum Physics in mind-bending? Well…Puppies are cute! Um… ok. > [@](#): > > It’s funny how even though you both agree with me that it’s easier to understand the idea that there is no God than to understand that there is a God, you’re still arguing with me. Once again, this is a strawman. My original statement said that because of my upbringing, Catholic, I didn’t even know that atheism was an option. The existence of God had been presented as fact as early as I can remember, and the idea that what I had been taught by my parents and believed all my life might be wrong was a surprise. You responded with: > [@](#): > > I find the notion incredibly difficult to comprehend. I am baffled that people can not understand the concept of atheism. It’s so simple and mindless a concept. Far less complex and mind-bending than actually believing in a God. and totally missed the point. It’s not that I didn’t understand atheism, it’s that I didn’t even know it existed until I was exposed to it later in life. For someone who was brought up with religious education, understanding that there is no god is quite difficult. Simply knowing that it’s an option is the first step, one denied to me until college. Putting this idea out where everyone can see it is a good thing, and will help other people take that first step. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/71 "2008-10-28T16:18:02Z")
Then **Der Trihs** made an irrelevant non-sequitur about Quantum Physics and you jumped to the defense of your co-religionist. I didn’t miss the point of what you said. **Der Trihs** muddied the waters and you jumped to his defense. These debates would be so much more fruitful if people didn’t always jump to his defense when he’s called out for being a jerk. It’s such a silly and common tactic, “Your religious belief is stupid…(Insert irrelevant factoid about science here) is cool!” Like I said, if you want that kind of banality to represent you by al means keep going. My response to you originally which we were able to discuss congenially until someone started babbling nonsense, was simply that I was surprised that such an ignorance of atheism could exist. It explains a lot about your intense distaste for religion. I’ve never had that sort of experience. But by all means, lets continue **Der Trihs** ’s hijack, keep defending him for no other reason than he agrees with you about whether or not God exists. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/72 "2008-10-28T16:55:03Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So as a result, science comes under attack because people see it as atheism. It’s an unfortunate blowback from his extremist agenda. Religious education for children is child abuse? Come on. Indoctrinating children into religion is pretty scummy. Children are at a stage in their life where they accept everything adults tell them. Scaring children with threats of eternal hellfire isn’t bad? That fucks with a persons mind! Sorry if it’s an unpopular argument with theists, but it’s a valid argument. It’s amazing all the ridiculous crap that parents are allowed to fill their childrens heads with. On top of that, the really crazy parents can homeschool their kids to shut out all contradictory sources of information. That’s fucked up. Granted, there may be problems with legally defining this as child abuse, but the analogy holds water. Why do we allow parents to hobble their childrens minds like this? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/73 "2008-10-28T17:03:29Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Indoctrinating children into religion is pretty scummy. Children are at a stage in their life where they accept everything adults tell them. Scaring children with threats of eternal hellfire isn’t bad? That fucks with a persons mind! Sorry if it’s an unpopular argument with theists, but it’s a valid argument. WHat about indoctrinating them into atheism? > [@](#): > > It’s amazing all the ridiculous crap that parents are allowed to fill their childrens heads with. On top of that, the really crazy parents can homeschool their kids to shut out all contradictory sources of information. That’s fucked up. Would you rather the state raise the children? > [@](#): > > Granted, there may be problems with legally defining this as child abuse, but the analogy holds water. Why do we allow parents to hobble their childrens minds like this? So who gets to decide what Children are taught? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/74 "2008-10-28T17:19:02Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Then **Der Trihs** made an irrelevant non-sequitur about Quantum Physics and you jumped to the defense of your co-religionist. Again, I must ask what you are talking about. To me, it looks like all he said was ‘No, religion isn’t mindbending, it’s primitive. Quantum physics is mind bending.’ I don’t understand what’s so difficult about this. Of course, it could be that you’re ignoring the real argument about religion being primitive and simple, and instead focusing on the side comment he made contrast the first statement. Unless you can clarify your argument that may be the only conclusion. > [@](#): > > I didn’t miss the point of what you said. **Der Trihs** muddied the waters and you jumped to his defense. These debates would be so much more fruitful if people didn’t always jump to his defense when he’s called out for being a jerk. It’s such a silly and common tactic, “Your religious belief is stupid..(Insert irrelevant factoid about science here) is cool!” Like I said, if you want that kind of banality to represent you by al means keep going. And if you want this kind of strawman and word twisting to be associated with you, then simply keep it up. He said nothing about stupid or cool. You are the only one reading all this extra stuff into what should have been a simple statement. > [@](#): > > My response to you originally which we were able to discuss congenially until someone started babbling nonsense, was simply that I was surprised that such an ignorance of atheism could exist. It explains a lot about your intense distaste for religion. I’ve never had that sort of experience. No, that’s not what you said. You said: > [@](#): > > I am baffled that people can not understand the concept of atheism This statement, as is, appears to refer to understanding atheism, not the existence of atheism. You may have meant it the second way, but it looks like the first way to me, and probably to him too. > [@](#): > > But by all means, lets continue **Der Trihs** ’s hijack, keep defending him for no other reason than he agrees with you about whether or not God exists. :rolleyes: Right, we’re all against you. Persecuted much? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/75 "2008-10-28T17:31:56Z")
Well I enjoyed the 15 seconds of understanding while it lasted. It was nice talking to you. If you can’t understand that what Der Trihs said was a pointless jab, then there isn’t much to continue. ---
**Author:** ![hobscrk777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a6a055/32.png) [@hobscrk777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hobscrk777)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/76 "2008-10-28T21:39:32Z")
> [@Freyr](#): > > You missed the point I was trying to make at **Der Trihs**. He said that religion is irrational and that anyone who follows it is also irrational. I want him to prove these points, how is religion irrational and how does he deduce that such people are irrational? > > I would counter his first statement by saying that religion is perfectly rational. By that I mean that conclusions it draws flow logically from its premises. Now you might not agree with the premises that religion starts with, but the logic that religion follows is perfectly sound. Now, if you want to argue with its basic premises, that’s different argument, entirely, but please stop with this idea that religion is irrational. > > The second point is that people who practice some religious belief are irrational. I want **Der Trihs** to show his credentials for drawing such a conclusion. Does he have a Master’s in Social work? Does he have any post graduate work in psychology? How does he draw such a sweeping conclusion from simply reading their typed words on one Internet posting site? > > If not, then I say again he’s only spouting his opinion. He’s perfectly allowed to do so. But its only that, **his opinion**. And I’m perfectly allowed to laugh at his opinion and show it as much respect as he shows toward religion. I’ll concede the point that religion is logical in its own unique way if you accept the premises, like you state. Having said that, _anything_ follows from the premise of “Goddidit” ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/77 "2008-10-28T22:10:47Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > :dubious: > > If you think such vulgar and arrogant bozos are the kind of public face that most accurately portrays you and your beliefs, well then, I guess they’re perfect. Super logic you’re showing here. 1- You’re the one calling them vulgar and arrogant bozos. 2- Nobody said they most accurately portray us and our beliefs. 3- If we had said that, it would _not_ mean that they’re perfect. Let’s try it out. “Fred Phelps is the kind of public face that most accurately portrays me and my beliefs. Therefore, he’s perfect.” Logical? No. To say nothing of even bringing up such an argument when the people representing belief in God are Fred Phelps, Bill Donohoe, the Ayatollah Khomeini, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/78 "2008-10-28T22:20:27Z")
> [@Ataraxy](#): > > The British Humanist Association has launched a campaign to put the slogan [“There probably is no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.”](http://www.atheistcampaign.org/) on UK buses. Does the Dope think a campaign like this would be effective in the UK or elsewhere? Ummm!! who cares? Most people today, don’t have the time to bother if there is or isn’t. For the most part folks go about their lives doing what they think is right. It is my opinion that only a few actually worry for real in their private moments if there is a GOD or not. Most humans today are pretty shallow anyway. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/79 "2008-10-28T22:30:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well I enjoyed the 15 seconds of understanding while it lasted. It was nice talking to you. > > If you can’t understand that what Der Trihs said was a pointless jab, then there isn’t much to continue. Why was it a pointless jab? It was in response to the claim that belief in God was “mind-bending”. He pointed out that it _wasn’t_ mind-bending, it was a fairly primitive form of thinking, and brought up an example of something that _was_ truly mind-bending. Perfectly on topic, as far as what he was responding to. What _you’re_ responding to is much less clear. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270/80 "2008-10-28T23:55:08Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Why was it a pointless jab? It was in response to the claim that belief in God was “mind-bending”. He pointed out that it _wasn’t_ mind-bending, it was a fairly primitive form of thinking, and brought up an example of something that _was_ truly mind-bending. Perfectly on topic, as far as what he was responding to. What _you’re_ responding to is much less clear. It was a non-sequitur. You think Quantum Physics is mindbending? No! 1000 Micrograms of LSD is Mind-Bending! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-bus-campaign/469270.md?page=5)