And this point illustrates precisely why Dawkins’ Evangelical atheism is pernicious. He is turning it into a religion. As you can see people like Der Trihs start defending Science as if anyone is attacking science. Completely incapable of even staying in line with the argument that the other person is making. It leads to that sort of dogmatic nonthink in favor of atheism, which is of course directly in opposition to Dawkins stated goals.
What is this BIG difference?
You are blowing this ‘science = atheism’ thing way out of proportion, if it even exists.
Der Trihs used something in science as an example, his post had nothing to do with it.
People aren’t opposing ‘scientific education’. They’re opposing evolution. No one is arguing against teaching geology or chemistry or physics. The reasons are well known, and they have nothing to do with Dawkins or anyone elses imagined conflation of science with athiesm.
We’ll see. All I see all over the net is people circling the wagons against this new trend of evangelical atheism as paraded about by such jerks as Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers. Like Daniel Dennett’s ever embarassing, “Brights”.
Well then maybe he’d like to explain why he used a non-sequitur that is a field of study open to atheists and religionists alike. I doubt he’ll have a good explanation. He’ll probably insist that it’s impossible for religious people to do science.
Remember this campaign is in London, so the majority of people who see it will be CoE, which is pretty much shorthand for agnostic anyway. We don’t really have that kind of ‘right’ here either.
What does this mean? That religious people are getting defensive because atheism is suddenly taking the offense? Good. You’re offended because ‘jerks’ have the unmitigated gall to actually question your opinion? Too bad. For a long time now religious belief has demanded and received special treatment. Now that people are seeing that it does not deserve special treatment and are questioning it, suddenly you have to circle the wagons and defend your belief. I’ll say it again: good.
What are you talking about? He never said that religious people can’t study quantum physics. He said that your attribution of ‘mind bending’ to religious was false, that it was actually simple and primitive. He claimed that quantum physics was mind bending.
:dubious:
If you think such vulgar and arrogant bozos are the kind of public face that most accurately portrays you and your beliefs, well then, I guess they’re perfect.
You think Quantum Physics in mind-bending? Well…Puppies are cute!
It’s funny how even though you both agree with me that it’s easier to understand the idea that there is no God than to understand that there is a God, you’re still arguing with me.
And if you think that’s anything but a ridiculous strawman argument, then maybe you should be thinking before posting.
Um… ok.
Once again, this is a strawman.
My original statement said that because of my upbringing, Catholic, I didn’t even know that atheism was an option. The existence of God had been presented as fact as early as I can remember, and the idea that what I had been taught by my parents and believed all my life might be wrong was a surprise.
You responded with:
and totally missed the point. It’s not that I didn’t understand atheism, it’s that I didn’t even know it existed until I was exposed to it later in life. For someone who was brought up with religious education, understanding that there is no god is quite difficult. Simply knowing that it’s an option is the first step, one denied to me until college. Putting this idea out where everyone can see it is a good thing, and will help other people take that first step.
Then Der Trihs made an irrelevant non-sequitur about Quantum Physics and you jumped to the defense of your co-religionist.
I didn’t miss the point of what you said. Der Trihs muddied the waters and you jumped to his defense. These debates would be so much more fruitful if people didn’t always jump to his defense when he’s called out for being a jerk. It’s such a silly and common tactic, “Your religious belief is stupid…(Insert irrelevant factoid about science here) is cool!” Like I said, if you want that kind of banality to represent you by al means keep going.
My response to you originally which we were able to discuss congenially until someone started babbling nonsense, was simply that I was surprised that such an ignorance of atheism could exist. It explains a lot about your intense distaste for religion. I’ve never had that sort of experience.
But by all means, lets continue Der Trihs’s hijack, keep defending him for no other reason than he agrees with you about whether or not God exists.
Indoctrinating children into religion is pretty scummy. Children are at a stage in their life where they accept everything adults tell them. Scaring children with threats of eternal hellfire isn’t bad? That fucks with a persons mind! Sorry if it’s an unpopular argument with theists, but it’s a valid argument.
It’s amazing all the ridiculous crap that parents are allowed to fill their childrens heads with. On top of that, the really crazy parents can homeschool their kids to shut out all contradictory sources of information. That’s fucked up.
Granted, there may be problems with legally defining this as child abuse, but the analogy holds water. Why do we allow parents to hobble their childrens minds like this?
WHat about indoctrinating them into atheism?
Would you rather the state raise the children?
So who gets to decide what Children are taught?
Again, I must ask what you are talking about. To me, it looks like all he said was ‘No, religion isn’t mindbending, it’s primitive. Quantum physics is mind bending.’ I don’t understand what’s so difficult about this. Of course, it could be that you’re ignoring the real argument about religion being primitive and simple, and instead focusing on the side comment he made contrast the first statement. Unless you can clarify your argument that may be the only conclusion.
And if you want this kind of strawman and word twisting to be associated with you, then simply keep it up. He said nothing about stupid or cool. You are the only one reading all this extra stuff into what should have been a simple statement.
No, that’s not what you said. You said:
This statement, as is, appears to refer to understanding atheism, not the existence of atheism. You may have meant it the second way, but it looks like the first way to me, and probably to him too.
:rolleyes: Right, we’re all against you. Persecuted much?
Well I enjoyed the 15 seconds of understanding while it lasted. It was nice talking to you.
If you can’t understand that what Der Trihs said was a pointless jab, then there isn’t much to continue.
I’ll concede the point that religion is logical in its own unique way if you accept the premises, like you state. Having said that, anything follows from the premise of “Goddidit”
Super logic you’re showing here.
1- You’re the one calling them vulgar and arrogant bozos.
2- Nobody said they most accurately portray us and our beliefs.
3- If we had said that, it would not mean that they’re perfect. Let’s try it out. “Fred Phelps is the kind of public face that most accurately portrays me and my beliefs. Therefore, he’s perfect.” Logical? No.
To say nothing of even bringing up such an argument when the people representing belief in God are Fred Phelps, Bill Donohoe, the Ayatollah Khomeini, etc.
Ummm!! who cares? Most people today, don’t have the time to bother if there is or isn’t. For the most part folks go about their lives doing what they think is right. It is my opinion that only a few actually worry for real in their private moments if there is a GOD or not.
Most humans today are pretty shallow anyway.
Why was it a pointless jab? It was in response to the claim that belief in God was “mind-bending”. He pointed out that it wasn’t mind-bending, it was a fairly primitive form of thinking, and brought up an example of something that was truly mind-bending. Perfectly on topic, as far as what he was responding to. What you’re responding to is much less clear.
It was a non-sequitur. You think Quantum Physics is mindbending? No! 1000 Micrograms of LSD is Mind-Bending!