# Atheist Churches, Good or Bad Idea. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579 "2013-02-07T12:10:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/361 "2013-02-11T04:39:22Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > [Apatheist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism) Good heavens - and here all this time I’ve been thinking that “apathetic agnostic” (I don’t know and I don’t care!) was my own unique invention… ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/362 "2013-02-11T05:32:38Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > My mother is dead a few years now, so, no present. Thanks. > > Let me answer the question’s intent though by doing a compare and contrast. > > You might give a present to your mother because the Bible says honor your father and mother and you, knowing your mother, logically deduce that she would like a present. > > I might have given a present to my mother because I love her and have had past experiences that getting present is something that would make her happy. Or, in the case of my mother, not. She did not like getting presents. That was an inference, not a logical deduction on my part. A call she liked. Experience taught me that. > > But my lack of either Bible or logic to support my actions (and your using both to support yours) is really immaterial. Those with God concepts will use logic and use inference; they will respond with behavior patterns based on years of evolution selecting for certain sorts of responses and based on learned socializations. And so will those without God concepts. You explain/justify your behaviors because you believe your religion tells you those things are right; I don’t need my religion to tell me … but amazingly enough most of the behaviors, most of the values, are likely the same. You make good points and you end up with the atheist and the theist acting in the same manner. My explanation is that the NT and other bibles gathered the best religious thinking of their respective eras. As a consequence their teachings were widely followed during those eras. So that even if you no longer looked at the text and a God, the ideas and values became embedded in society at large. Thus in the future an atheist or any other individual could reference these values without referring to the Bible or God. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/363 "2013-02-11T05:44:23Z")
Actually, the Golden Rule (Do unto others as you would have others do unto you) predates the Bible in written form by hundreds of years, across many cultures where neither Judaism or Christianity took hold till much more recent times. The Bible CAME FROM the already existing values, it was not the source of them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/364 "2013-02-11T05:48:50Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Actually, the Golden Rule (Do unto others as you would have others do unto you) predates the Bible in written form by hundreds of years, across many cultures where neither Judaism or Christianity took hold till much more recent times. The Bible CAME FROM the already existing values, it was not the source of them. He is bound and determined to prove that atheists are secretly religious in some manner or form-_that_ is the reason why **pchaos** is in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/365 "2013-02-11T06:13:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > He is bound and determined to prove that atheists are secretly religious in some manner or form-_that_ is the reason why **pchaos** is in this thread. Sort of. I still give **pchaos** credit for just not getting it. A lot of people I grew up with were similar. Maybe I’m being optimistic that’s it’s not deliberate, but there you go. Really, everything they were taught in youth tells them that atheists actually have faith in something (actually, most of the Southern Christians I grew up around assumed atheists actually held the same tenets as Southern Christians and just said they didn’t - kind of like **pchaos** actually). Further, they were also taught not to question certain forms of authority (particularly religious authority). This leads to the conclusion that atheists are just like Christians ™ with “Atheism” substituted for “Christianity”. And that’s precisely the logical fallacy that’s been repeated so often by **pchaos** in this thread. It’s also why some Christians absolutely don’t understand Buddhism or Hinduism or Judaism, much less atheism. It is beyond their current capability to understand a fundamentally different way of thinking than their own. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/366 "2013-02-11T07:03:47Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > Good heavens - and here all this time I’ve been thinking that “apathetic agnostic” (I don’t know and I don’t care!) was my own unique invention… I, too, came up with the term years before I found out that other people had been using it before me. ☹ I’m not a unique snowflake ☹ But neither are you! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/367 "2013-02-11T11:42:27Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Thus in the future an atheist or any other individual could reference these values without referring to the Bible or God. Oh, atheists can reference values values and refer to religious texts … without believing in any god … now. You may be interested to learn that the group that knows the _most_ about religion are [the atheists](http://www.pewforum.org/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey-who-knows-what-about-religion.aspx). (Hence the atheists are more likely than religious Christians to know that the Golden Rule predates the Christian religion.) Atheists can and often do respect a variety of religious texts – as literature and as historical documents that both reflect and have influenced the history of values. Viewing them as a particular society’s mythologies rather than as revealed truths does not mean dismissing them as unimportant: we tell ourselves particular stories at particular times in history for important reasons. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/368 "2013-02-11T12:02:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In much the same way science does not address the existence of Superman. But I believe in Superman. And my mom is getting slippers, although I coulda sworn she was turning 79. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/369 "2013-02-11T13:01:58Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’m starting to come to the same conclusion, beyond the lack of belief in God and other deities, atheism has little to offer. As a possible consequence, they will remain a small percentage of the population. As I re-read this, I thought; One thing in Atheism’s favor they are able to use their own minds, and not worry about eternal damnation if they don’t follow some rules set up thousands of years ago by some other human; this is how I would think a Supreme, all knowing loving being would want. There is nothing ever written, taught, said, or thought, that isn’t from another human. The Atheists I know could put a lot of Christians to shame, they live more in accord of the teachings of Jesus than a lot of Christians who are more like the Pharisees. Talking the talk is not walking the walk. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/370 "2013-02-11T13:16:56Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > You make good points and you end up with the atheist and the theist acting in the same manner. My explanation is that the NT and other bibles gathered the best religious thinking of their respective eras. As a consequence their teachings were widely followed during those eras. So that even if you no longer looked at the text and a God, the ideas and values became embedded in society at large. > > Thus in the future an atheist or any other individual could reference these values without referring to the Bible or God. The Ideas were followed becaue in many cases if they didn’t, they were burned at the stake, or killed in the Crusades. There were people with strong beliefs who were martyrers for their cause, but their beliefs were taught to them by various stories, and they wanted to have a good life after they were dead. ---
**Author:** ![MrPestus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e79b87/32.png) [@MrPestus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrPestus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/371 "2013-02-11T13:35:10Z")
I think the nomenclature “church” is being used in this context to oppose the idea of a religious church. There are atheist and skeptical thinking groups, they just don’t refer to themselves as churches. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/372 "2013-02-11T14:20:04Z")
> [@MrPestus](#): > > I think the nomenclature “church” is being used in this context to oppose the idea of a religious church. There are atheist and skeptical thinking groups, they just don’t refer to themselves as churches. Now that you mention it, I’m a (pretty passive) member of the Secular Humanist Society of New York, which is meeting this weekend to celebrate the anniversary of [Darwin’s birth](http://www.meetup.com/shsny-org), but I would never describe it as a church, nor would any of its members. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/373 "2013-02-11T14:21:04Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’m starting to come to the same conclusion, beyond the lack of belief in God and other deities, atheism has little to offer. As a possible consequence, they will remain a small percentage of the population. Taking a slightly different tack, and just thinking off the top of my head, but would it provide any insight to compare “becoming” atheist with loss of faith/belief in other myths? When you were a kid, and everyone was telling you to believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy, such things were very real to you, and added to your life in some way. At some point, for whatever combination of reasons, most people decide that these characters are not real. This changed perception may well change any number of aspects of the way a person views certain life events/holidays, or even interpersonal interaction. But would you say the person’s life is less rich/meaningful for a lack of belief in Santa? Just thinking out loud here. I’ve tried to make it pretty clear that I don’t find the term atheist to be too terribly important or meaningful. Also reminds me of the old saw how the atheist and deist talk about all the BS deities and myths they agree to reject, and the atheist says something along the lines of “We agree on all these things, I just reject one more deity than you do.” How is a Christian’s life affected by not believing in Zeus? Or the principles of Islam? Maybe many “believers” are as judgmental of folk of different faith as many atheists are of all believers. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/374 "2013-02-11T15:02:26Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > When you were a kid, and everyone was telling you to believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy, such things were very real to you, and added to your life in some way. At some point, for whatever combination of reasons, most people decide that these characters are not real. This changed perception may well change any number of aspects of the way a person views certain life events/holidays, or even interpersonal interaction. But would you say the person’s life is less rich/meaningful for a lack of belief in Santa? But there’s a big difference between saying Santa Claus is a myth and God is a myth. Normally, people do not build their entire lives around Santa Claus, but it’s a different story with God. Entire lives, families and communities are built around particular Gods. If atheists want to be taken seriously they need to go beyond…there’s no God, but we don’t have much more to offer. I had a clinical psychologist friend and ranted and raved against the state of psychiatry in the U.S. He basically says that psychiatry as it’s practiced in U.S. is irresponsible. Basically, you are asking mentally ill patients to give up their irrational beliefs and become normal. But the problem is have you actually stepped into their shoes, have you actually gone through the suffering. And even more importantly, have you developed within that person another value system that will help them move forward. So when that theist hears…that atheists have nothing much more to offer. The majority of them will shut the door. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/375 "2013-02-11T15:09:14Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > But there’s a big difference between saying Santa Claus is a myth and God is a myth. > > Normally, people do not build their entire lives around Santa Claus, but it’s a different story with God. Entire lives, families and communities are built around particular Gods. > > If atheists want to be taken seriously they need to go beyond…there’s no God, but we don’t have much more to offer. > > I had a clinical psychologist friend and ranted and raved against the state of psychiatry in the U.S. > > He basically says that psychiatry as it’s practiced in U.S. is irresponsible. Basically, you are asking mentally ill patients to give up their irrational beliefs and become normal. But the problem is have you actually stepped into their shoes, have you actually gone through the suffering. > > And even more importantly, have you developed within that person another value system that will help them move forward. > > So when that theist hears…that atheists have nothing much more to offer. The majority of them will shut the door. It seems that your clinical psychologist friend understands psychiatry about as much as you understand the law-did you happen to room together in college? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/376 "2013-02-11T15:15:04Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > If atheists want to be taken seriously they need to go beyond…there’s no God, We don’t want to ‘be taken seriously’. We just want you lot to STFU about your myths and your bronze age moralities. And we particularly want you to stop trying to impose them on the world. You lot stop bringing your myths into public policy debates; you lot just keep your faith quiet and personal; you lot accept that there is no public policy, no political, no educational and no moral question whose answer begins ‘God/Jesus/Mohammed said’, and we’ll STFU as well. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/377 "2013-02-11T15:17:21Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > But there’s a big difference between saying Santa Claus is a myth and God is a myth. > > Normally, people do not build their entire lives around Santa Claus, but it’s a different story with God. Entire lives, families and communities are built around particular Gods. > > If atheists want to be taken seriously they need to go beyond…there’s no God, but we don’t have much more to offer. So the question isn’t whether they’re correct, but whether they have a good sales pitch? I’d almost believe you didn’t realize the implications, except… > [@](#): > > I had a clinical psychologist friend and ranted and raved against the state of psychiatry in the U.S. > > He basically says that psychiatry as it’s practiced in U.S. is irresponsible. Basically, you are asking mentally ill patients to give up their irrational beliefs and become normal. But the problem is have you actually stepped into their shoes, have you actually gone through the suffering. > > And even more importantly, have you developed within that person another value system that will help them move forward. > > So when that theist hears…that atheists have nothing much more to offer. The majority of them will shut the door. You’re comparing a belief in God to an irrational belief – and, by analogy, claiming that atheists talking to theists are like accurate psychiatrists, are talking to mentally ill people who shut the door instead of abandoning their irrational beliefs? I’d expect an atheist to make that argument; why are you making it? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/378 "2013-02-11T15:18:18Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > But there’s a big difference between saying Santa Claus is a myth and God is a myth. > > Normally, people do not build their entire lives around Santa Claus, but it’s a different story with God. Entire lives, families and communities are built around particular Gods. > > If atheists want to be taken seriously they need to go beyond…there’s no God, but we don’t have much more to offer. > > I had a clinical psychologist friend and ranted and raved against the state of psychiatry in the U.S. > > He basically says that psychiatry as it’s practiced in U.S. is irresponsible. Basically, you are asking mentally ill patients to give up their irrational beliefs and become normal. But the problem is have you actually stepped into their shoes, have you actually gone through the suffering. > > And even more importantly, have you developed within that person another value system that will help them move forward. > > So when that theist hears…that atheists have nothing much more to offer. The majority of them will shut the door. You keep talking about what “atheists” do or don’t have to offer as compared to “theists” - exactly _what_ can you get from a theist organization that you cannot get with out it? The only thing(s) I am aware of is a) faith in unseen/unprovable things - sometimes requiring a person to ignore all avenues of evidence that said things are ‘false’ (flood, creation myth, christ’s promises, etc) b) a hope for something ‘after’ you die (or fear of something else) How, is that truly offereing anything usable? its all empty promises ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/379 "2013-02-11T15:22:25Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > If atheists want to be taken seriously they need to go beyond…there’s no God, but we don’t have much more to offer. So close. “There’s no God – and we have everything to offer, without worrying about how religion feels about it.” > [@](#): > > So when that theist hears…that atheists have nothing much more to offer … When a theist hears that atheist have nothing much to offer – he’s hearing it from another theist. And then they’re both wrong. And thus we see the circle of life of the religious belief. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/380 "2013-02-11T15:30:08Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > But there’s a big difference between saying Santa Claus is a myth and God is a myth. There really isn’t. You’re correct that gods occupy much larger roles in people’s lives, but the reasons for disbelieving in the two are the same and **Dinsdale** is right that the ‘added value’ idea is not a reason to believe in something by itself. > [@](#): > > If atheists want to be taken seriously I don’t like to speak for atheists, but I will anyway: we don’t care if you take us seriously. This is nonsense anyway since plenty of people take atheists seriously. If people think you’re in league with Satan, they’re taking you seriously (they’re just stupid), and there are enough nonbelievers out there that they can’t be dismissed entirely. > [@](#): > > So when that theist hears…that atheists have nothing much more to offer. The majority of them will shut the door. Again: don’t care. You need to disabuse yourself of this notion that atheists are motivated to proselytize the way Christians and many other religious people are. In general they are not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=20)