# Atheist Churches, Good or Bad Idea. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579 "2013-02-07T12:10:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/381 "2013-02-11T15:34:07Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > If atheists want to be taken seriously they need to go beyond…there’s no God, but we don’t have much more to offer. Well, third time’s a charm: > [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > You see a church as a vehicle for “spreading the message of Christianity” in the community. > > It is clear you can’t understand how “atheists” (in quotes, as these are _your_ version of atheists) can spread _their_ “message of non-belief” without a similar structure. > > The points you continue to fail to realize is (1) atheists aren’t a unified body of people and (2) most aren’t interested in proselytizing or “converting” other people to atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/382 "2013-02-11T15:39:54Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Well, third time’s a charm: A mere charm isn’t going to cut it with this one-you’re going to need a spell the likes of which would make Dumbledore piss his pants. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/383 "2013-02-11T15:49:33Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You’re comparing a belief in God to an irrational belief – and, by analogy, claiming that atheists talking to theists are like accurate psychiatrists, are talking to mentally ill people who shut the door instead of abandoning their irrational beliefs? I’d expect an atheist to make that argument; why are you making it? I’m making it because it is logical…and I would like to take my atheist friends seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/384 "2013-02-11T15:50:50Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > But there’s a big difference between saying Santa Claus is a myth and God is a myth. > > Normally, people do not build their entire lives around Santa Claus, but it’s a different story with God. Entire lives, families and communities are built around particular Gods. > > If atheists want to be taken seriously they need to go beyond…there’s no God, but we don’t have much more to offer. I hope you understand by now that there’s nothing in atheism beyond “there’s no God”. That is the sum of it. Atheism is not a philosophy, ethical system, or worldview. Moving on, if you’re interested in what philosophies are compatible with atheism, and are actually held by atheists, I can start you off with one such example: [Secular humanism.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism) > [@](#): > > The philosophy or life stance secular humanism (alternatively known by some adherents as Humanism, specifically with a capital H to distinguish it from other forms of humanism) embraces human reason, ethics, social justice and philosophical naturalism, whilst specifically rejecting religious dogma, supernaturalism, pseudoscience or superstition as the basis of morality and decision making. > > It posits that human beings are capable of being ethical and moral without religion or a god. It does not, however, assume that humans are either inherently evil or innately good, nor does it present humans as being superior to nature. Rather, the humanist life stance emphasizes the unique responsibility facing humanity and the ethical consequences of human decisions. Fundamental to the concept of secular humanism is the strongly held viewpoint that ideology—be it religious or political—must be thoroughly examined by each individual and not simply accepted or rejected on faith. Along with this, an essential part of secular humanism is a continually adapting search for truth, primarily through science and philosophy. Many Humanists derive their moral codes from a philosophy of utilitarianism, ethical naturalism or evolutionary ethics, and some advocate a science of morality. To be clear, secular humanism is not atheism, though they are compatible. But, if you want to know what atheist believe in, as opposed to what they do not, there’s one example of one such belief. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/385 "2013-02-11T15:52:13Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’m making it because it is logical…and I would like to take my atheist friends seriously. Perhaps start by asking them what they believe in, rather than defining them by what they don’t believe in. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/386 "2013-02-11T16:22:59Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’m making it because it is logical…and I would like to take my atheist friends seriously. But how can they take _ **you** _ seriously? You’re saying that (a) you believe in God, and that (b) a guy who believes in God is like a mentally ill patient shutting the door on accurate psychiatrists offering to replace irrational beliefs with little more than the promise of a normal life. Why the heck would they disagree with you? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/387 "2013-02-11T16:23:18Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I would like to take my atheist friends seriously. So take them seriously. It’s not their responsibility to make you take them seriously - that’s quite an attitude for a friend to take! - it’s up to you to treat their views seriously. If you want to find out what they think, ask them. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/388 "2013-02-11T16:33:54Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But how can they take _ **you** _ seriously? You’re saying that (a) you believe in God, and that (b) a guy who believes in God is like a mentally ill patient shutting the door on accurate psychiatrists offering to replace irrational beliefs with little more than the promise of a normal life. Why the heck would they disagree with you? According to my clinical psychologist friend the psychiatrists are using the society’s standards of normal. They are not using a standard appropriate for somebody recovering from irrational beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/389 "2013-02-11T16:36:25Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > But there’s a big difference between saying Santa Claus is a myth and God is a myth. > > Normally, people do not build their entire lives around Santa Claus, but it’s a different story with God. Entire lives, families and communities are built around particular Gods. > > If atheists want to be taken seriously they need to go beyond…there’s no God, but we don’t have much more to offer. Well, several people said just about all I could. It seems at this point you are eaither unable to understand, or are refusing to. So I doubt more discussion will sway you. Speaking only for myself, there is exactly the same basis for disbelieving in any particular god, as santa. In short - there is no reliable evidence for the existence of either and - as I perceive the universe - there is no need to believe in either to explain anything. Also, I think you are looking through the prism from a different angle. Many thoughtful nonbelievers think that a rational and natural universe is provides at least as much if not more wonder and inspiration than one with a magical factor. And a responsible and rationally-led life more rewarding, with actions based on conscious choices is at least as fulfilling as following some “rulebook” or seeking to reap imaginary benefits or avoid unproven penalties after death. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/390 "2013-02-11T16:39:56Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > But there’s a big difference between saying Santa Claus is a myth and God is a myth. No. Not to me, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/391 "2013-02-11T16:45:28Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > No. Not to me, anyway. There are, in the sense that there’s an ethical system, and a philosophy of life and meaning and values, bound up in religion that’s not found in belief in Santa Claus. Someone passing from belief in Santa to disbelief doesn’t have much of an adjustment to make; someone passing from Christianity to atheism does. What are acceptable morals? Where did life come from? Will my Christian friends still speak to me? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/392 "2013-02-11T16:54:07Z")
You’d better watch out, you’d better not cry You’d better not pout, I’m telling you why… He’s making a list, he’s checkin’ it twice He’s gonna find out whose naughty or nice… He sees you when you’re sleeping He knows if you’re awake He knows if you’ve been bad or good (so you’d) better be good for goodness sake Be good and be reward, be bad and be punished. Sounds like most religions to me. The difference in transition is of course that parents eventually tell their kids it was a fanciful game, while religious leaders insist theirs is a substantial revelation passed down through the ages. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/393 "2013-02-11T16:54:32Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’m making it because it is logical…and I would like to take my atheist friends seriously. So the atheist point of view is logical. Is that your final answer? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/394 "2013-02-11T16:57:49Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So the atheist point of view is logical. Is that your final answer? Except that he doesn’t have much empathy for logic or “society’s standards of normal.” Apparently, neither of these are conditions he aims to reach. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/395 "2013-02-11T17:04:38Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > According to my clinical psychologist friend the psychiatrists are using the society’s standards of normal. They are not using a standard appropriate for somebody recovering from irrational beliefs. Who else’s standards of ‘normal’ should be used? (FTR, I think this sentence is a jumbled mess and I am not sure that I believe that you are being accurate as to your assesment of your friends statement or memory thereof - I’d be happy to be incorrect, but …) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/396 "2013-02-11T17:12:04Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > According to my clinical psychologist friend the psychiatrists are using the society’s standards of normal. They are not using a standard appropriate for somebody recovering from irrational beliefs. Yeah, but, see, when you say they aren’t using a standard appropriate for someone recovering from irrational beliefs, you may think you’re putting the emphasis on _“standard appropriate,”_ but you’re actually putting it on _“irrational beliefs.”_ If a couple of atheists in this thread start likening you to a mentally ill patient who isn’t yet ready to open the door for accurate psychiatrists, what the heck am I supposed to say to them in your defense? _“Hey, hold up, guys; don’t you know he already understands all of that, agrees with you, and beat you to it?”_ ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/397 "2013-02-11T17:49:04Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Except that he doesn’t have much empathy for logic or “society’s standards of normal.” Apparently, neither of these are conditions he aims to reach. The trasparency and predictability of the methods which **pchaos** uses to evade responding honestly to questions have become quite obvious (and tiresome). The only remaining challenge is to figure out what he hopes to gain by being intentionally disingenuous. I often wonder if it’s some kind of pathology. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/398 "2013-02-11T18:02:06Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > The trasparency and predictability of the methods which **pchaos** uses to evade responding honestly to questions have become quite obvious (and tiresome). The only remaining challenge is to figure out what he hopes to gain by being intentionally disingenuous. I often wonder if it’s some kind of pathology. Personally, I’m about to get bored and wander away. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/399 "2013-02-11T18:05:25Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Yeah, but, see, when you say they aren’t using a standard appropriate for someone recovering from irrational beliefs, you may think you’re putting the emphasis on _“standard appropriate,”_ but you’re actually putting it on _“irrational beliefs.”_ > \* Let me clarify. We are all greedy…that’s my assumption. Theists are already considered normal by society’s standards. In order for atheists to be taken seriously they need to offer an opportunity to at least meet that standard and exceed it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/400 "2013-02-11T18:09:07Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Theists are already considered normal by society’s standards. In order for atheists to be taken seriously they need to offer an opportunity to at least meet that standard and exceed it. How do you know if atheists are taken seriously, and how do you know what they have to do to get people to take them seriously? And who are the people they need to convince? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=21)