# Atheist Churches, Good or Bad Idea. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579 "2013-02-07T12:10:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/421 "2013-02-11T19:42:05Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I swear, it’s like you’ve wandered into a marketplace with various stalls of people selling things and have spotted an empty stall with a guy leaning against it. > > **pchaos** : What are you selling? > > **Stall guy** : Me? Nothing. I’m just standing here. > > **pchaos** : You’re selling nothing? > > **Stall guy** : Yeah. > > **pchaos** : How much does your nothing cost? > > **Stall guy** : Huh? No, I mean.. > > **pchaos** : Why should I buy your nothing? What does your nothing offer that is better than the something I can get at the other stalls? Can you convince me of the quality of your nothing? > > **Stall guy** : Look, there’s nothing here! I’m not selling anything! > > **pchaos** : Yes, I know, you’re selling nothing. Now tell me more about this nothing of yours… QFT - perfect! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/422 "2013-02-11T19:43:27Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Isn’t it obvious, there’s self-interest here, atheists don’t like being marginalized. True or False? That’s a fair point. But there’s a difference between being marginalized and “convincing people to make a major change in their lives.” Unless for some reason discriminating against atheists or dismissing them is a major part of your life. In that case I’m not so much interested in persuading you as preventing your from being able to discriminate. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/423 "2013-02-11T19:47:24Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Yes, also why have you guys spent so much time with a guy that doesn’t “get it.” Most people here have been very generous with their time and patient, almost to a fault. It would behoove you to show a little respect. Neither time not patience is an inexhaustible supply. > [@pchaos](#): > > Isn’t it obvious, there’s self-interest here, atheists don’t like being marginalized. True or False? If we’re being honest, it’s you who is being marginalized. At least your particular set of religious beliefs. More and more with every passing generation. If anyone has a self interests in need of protection, it’s probably you. True or False? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/424 "2013-02-11T19:49:01Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Feh. We’ve had longer and more acrimonious discussion over who was the better Darrin on Bewitched. That debate was settled-Darrin #2. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/425 "2013-02-11T19:49:27Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Yes, also why have you guys spent so much time with a guy that doesn’t “get it.” I like to discuss ideas; that’s why I’m here. That can’t happen until the parties to the discussion agree on what the ideas are. In your case, it is taking a while, and it is wearying. Imagine a thread on Christianity, in which one poster insisted that Christians worshipped Zeus, and asked Christians how they could worship a god that was a rapist. Is Christianity actually being discussed? No. > [@pchaos](#): > > Isn’t it obvious, there’s self-interest here, atheists don’t like being marginalized. True or False? You ask this as though there are people that like being marginalized. As for me, I’ll settle for being left alone. Living as I do in the United States, that hasn’t been a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/426 "2013-02-11T19:52:42Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’m lucky, I’ve been fairly successful and have the free time to post on SDMB. But other Theists may not be in the same situation. They’re smart enough to figure out that you don’t believe in God but what it seems like you’re offering is pretty much what they already have. Why should they make a major change in their lives now? Christianity does offer to most, I suppose eternal life, and also less of a chance of ending up in hell. Kind of hard to compete against that, but atheists don’t take any of that seriously, anyway, and are strong enough to get through life without any promises or threats. Some Christians don’t need a crutch, they need a wheelchair. They need the church to lean on one another, and to help when their faith is weak. By admitting to others what miserable sinners they are, and asking forgiveness, they seek out reassurances that they are still loved and that Jesus and heaven still awaits by wishfully thinking it to be so. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/427 "2013-02-11T19:52:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That debate was settled-Darrin #2. Let’s not start that again, you Replacementist. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/428 "2013-02-11T19:57:56Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > **pchaos** : Yes, I know, you’re selling nothing. Now tell me more about this nothing of yours… To be fair, in the nothing there are these quantum fluctuations… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/429 "2013-02-11T20:01:30Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, science does not address the existence of the supernatural. If it exists, it is natural. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/430 "2013-02-11T20:02:01Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > To be fair, in the nothing there are these quantum fluctuations… 😛 Right - so sometimes people with nothing to sell turn it into something on the word of someone else - they package it up, add a brand and promote it - and if you believe hard enough - it might, maybe, one day soon - be something - but only if you have faith. That sounds strangely familiar ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/431 "2013-02-11T20:03:09Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’m lucky, I’ve been fairly successful and have the free time to post on SDMB. But other Theists may not be in the same situation. They’re smart enough to figure out that you don’t believe in God but what it seems like you’re offering is pretty much what they already have. Why should they make a major change in their lives now? What makes you think we’re offering them any thing _at all?_ What makes you think we _care_ if they make any change in their lives? Here’s a hint: Most of us aren’t. Most of us don’t. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/432 "2013-02-11T20:27:29Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s a fair point. But there’s a difference between being marginalized and “convincing people to make a major change in their lives.” Unless for some reason discriminating against atheists or dismissing them is a major part of your life. In that case I’m not so much interested in persuading you as preventing your from being able to discriminate. Atheists are no more than 8% of the U.S. population. Among that 8% they probably can’t even decide on which restaurant to go to…much less put together a coherent doctrine. If that isn’t marginalized, I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/433 "2013-02-11T20:32:14Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Atheists are no more than 8% of the U.S. population. Among that 8% they probably can’t even decide on which restaurant to go to…much less put together a coherent doctrine. If that isn’t marginalized, I don’t know what is. And if I was remotely interesting in spreading atheism, that might bother me. And one more time, atheists can’t put together a coherent atheist doctrine, because atheism isn’t a doctrine. Individual atheists can and have devised philosophies about life and ethics, I linked to one earlier (secular humanism), but those ideas aren’t called ‘atheism’ because they aren’t, nor are they only applicable to atheists. Just for fun’s sake, I would wager you that denying the Second Coming puts you in smaller segment of Christians, than atheists are to the nation as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/434 "2013-02-11T20:35:35Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Atheists are no more than 8% of the U.S. population. Among that 8% they probably can’t even decide on which restaurant to go to…much less put together a coherent doctrine. If that isn’t marginalized, I don’t know what is. Okay, what is your definition of “marginalized.” Most of us do not use it to try to describe a diverse assemblage of people who have little to nothing in common except a lack of belief in a god or gods. They have no doctrine. They do not want a doctrine. They are only marginalized if the righteous religious folks decide to make an issue out of their lack of religion. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/435 "2013-02-11T20:35:36Z")
> [@Human Action](#): > > Just for fun’s sake, I would wager you that denying the Second Coming puts you in smaller segment of Christians, than atheists are to the nation as a whole. Darn, Pew has it at [17% of Christians not believing in a Second Coming.](http://www.pewforum.org/Christians-Views-on-the-Return-of-Christ.aspx). Close but no cigar. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/436 "2013-02-11T20:35:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Just for fun’s sake, I would wager you that denying the Second Coming puts you in smaller segment of Christians, than atheists are to the nation as a whole. I didn’t deny the Second Coming…I just don’t believe that I will be around to see it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/437 "2013-02-11T20:37:18Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Atheists are no more than 8% of the U.S. population. Among that 8% they probably can’t even decide on which restaurant to go to…much less put together a coherent doctrine. If that isn’t marginalized, I don’t know what is. It’s hard to find a decent restaurant that seats 24 million! You’re right about the doctrine, but then again, atheism isn’t a religion and doesn’t need a doctrine. Most atheists don’t want one, and they don’t want atheism to be a substitute for religion. This has been explained to you over and over again already. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/438 "2013-02-11T20:39:40Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I didn’t deny the Second Coming…I just don’t believe that I will be around to see it. This has become totally ridiculous. In another thread you said the Second Coming was a metaphor, then you said it’s getting more likely you’ll live to see it, then you said it was a metaphor again. How can you criticize atheists for not having a coherent doctrine when your own views seem to change every post? > [@Jesus Christ and The Second Coming...Are we waiting for Him to be physically reborn or](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-and-the-second-coming-are-we-waiting-for-him-to-be-physically-reborn-or/645576/1): > > is it just a metaphor. Hmmm…tough question, but it looks like a metaphor to me. The Second Coming is a metaphor for when we meet our Maker. It is a time when we need to answer tough questions from our Father in Heaven. First, He’ll pat us on the back for making it into the pearly gates, then he’s going to remind us that it’s too late to correct our sins. However, all of our sins have been forgiven and we can lay down on the soft and comfy clouds and rest. > [@Jesus Christ and The Second Coming...Are we waiting for Him to be physically reborn or](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-and-the-second-coming-are-we-waiting-for-him-to-be-physically-reborn-or/645576/17): > > Since modern science and medicine is extending our lives, it’s getting more likely I will see the Second Coming within my lifetime…that’s way cool. > [@Jesus Christ and The Second Coming...Are we waiting for Him to be physically reborn or](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-and-the-second-coming-are-we-waiting-for-him-to-be-physically-reborn-or/645576/43): > > The Second Coming is a metaphor. The Bible mentions the Second Coming in concrete terms, however, it should not be taken literally. > > To me it is a spiritual guide written by individuals who were guided by the Holy Spirit. > The Second Coming is a Judgment Day, that all believers in Christ will someday have to face before passing or shortly thereafter. On that day we are rewarded for living life in an ethical manner and forgiven for our sins. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/439 "2013-02-11T20:40:34Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Atheists are no more than 8% of the U.S. population. Among that 8% they probably can’t even decide on which restaurant to go to…much less put together a coherent doctrine. If that isn’t marginalized, I don’t know what is. Do you relegate scientists among the lower limits of social standing? Why do you suppose that most of them are either agnostics and atheists in the sciences? If you put all of the religious works on one side, and all of the scientific works on the other, do you have to think about it very long to see which group has contributed the most to society? When will faith ever discover its first fact? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/440 "2013-02-11T20:41:39Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Atheists are no more than 8% of the U.S. population. Among that 8% they probably can’t even decide on which restaurant to go to…much less put together a coherent doctrine. If that isn’t marginalized, I don’t know what is. Whatever, honeybunch. If thoughts like that allow you to feel superior to a group of people you claim you just don’t encounter offline, then so be it. Personally, I gave up on trying to change your deliberate ignorance a while back and am only posting here so that others won’t think you might be correct just because nobody is bothering to correct you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=23)