# Atheist Churches, Good or Bad Idea. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579 "2013-02-07T12:10:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/461 "2013-02-11T22:36:38Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > But so far, atheism has turned out to be a little disappointing because it is really at the beginning stages of pulling itself together. Wow, you really still don’t get it, do you? Atheism is not an organized body of thought. False equivalences to Christianity (not theism, since you clearly don’t understand other religions, either) are clouding your thought. It is a lack of belief in any gods. Full stop. There’s nothing to “pull together”, so it’s not at the beginning stages of anything. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/462 "2013-02-11T22:41:31Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Initially, I thought atheism was interesting because I had experimented with Marxist thought at Cal. At one time, I thought that “religion was the opiate of the masses.” Have you figured out if you were or were not an atheist at that time? > [@](#): > > atheism has turned out to be a little disappointing because it is really at the beginning stages of pulling itself together. No, you just don’t know what it is. Which is sort of amazing, because you can sum up atheism in a very short sentence. I guess perhaps you want it to be another religion or a challenge or something, but that’s not what it is. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/463 "2013-02-11T22:47:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Have you figured out if you were or were not an atheist at that time? I did not consider myself an atheist at that time, I considered myself a political activist and I thought that religion would just slow me down. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/464 "2013-02-11T22:50:49Z")
Please answer my questions in post 458. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/465 "2013-02-11T22:55:32Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Being without a belief in the existence of gods is at the beginning stages of pulling itself together? How are you defining “atheism” this time? Atheism is the lack of belief in any God or deity but may offer something more sometime in the future. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/466 "2013-02-11T22:59:01Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > **pchaos,** earlier you suggested a crumbling cross for an atheist logo, and sorry I wasn’t around to comment at the time. But it did have me thinking of what Lenny Bruce had to say about the cross. Do you think it is a good symbol for Christians? Back when states were still using the electric chair, he wondered if Jesus had been killed not too long ago, would Christians be wearing little electric chairs around their necks instead of crosses? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Or going back to an example I’ve used many times, if Jesus had been hung would there be a little noose on a chain around your neck? Would you call it something like “The Circle Of Life” or whatever the Latin eqivalent is? Do you guys realize that posting garbage like this makes you look almost as dumb as **pchaos**? I mean, that’s a hard feat, but you almost manage it. How about we all stop inventing actions and motivations for groups we don’t actually understand, huh? I mean, Circle of Life? Really? And I bet you think that’s clever too… ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/467 "2013-02-11T22:59:57Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Atheism is the lack of belief in any God or deity but may offer something more sometime in the future. “More” of what? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/468 "2013-02-11T23:01:54Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Atheism is the lack of belief in any God or deity but may offer something more sometime in the future. What does that mean? Does that mean that the definition of the word may change in the future? Why should it? We’re always going to need a word that means not having a belief in the existence of gods with no other attachments and _atheism_ works perfectly. Likewise, _theism_ merely means being with the belief in the existence of at least one god and it doesn’t need another definition in the future. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/469 "2013-02-11T23:07:18Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > What does that mean? Does that mean that the definition of the word may change in the future? Why should it? We’re always going to need a word that means not having a belief in the existence of gods with no other attachments and _atheism_ works perfectly. Likewise, _theism_ merely means being with the belief in the existence of at least one god and it doesn’t need another definition in the future. If laws can change, then definitions can change. Generally, people are pretty sharp at SDMB. Why bother fighting ignorance unless you are hoping that some change will come about in the future? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/470 "2013-02-11T23:09:17Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Neither is intellectual capacity. Knock it off or take it to The BBQ Pit. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/471 "2013-02-11T23:13:01Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Why bother fighting ignorance unless you are hoping that some change will come about in the future? Right now we’re hoping, apparently in vain, that you’ll figure out how to separate your assumptions from reality. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/472 "2013-02-11T23:16:12Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > If laws can change, then definitions can change. Generally, people are pretty sharp at SDMB. You’re clearly ignoring some of my post. Do you agree that we’re always going to need a word that means nothing more than _being without belief in the existence of any gods_? If so, why change the definition of _atheism_ when we’ll just have to come up with a new word to replace what it means now? A - without Theism - Belief in the existence of at least one god. Do you see why the definition shouldn’t change? > [@](#): > > Why bother fighting ignorance unless you are hoping that some change will come about in the future? Fighting ignorance does not mean hoping that everything changes. It will be much harder to fight ignorance if the definitions of words change for no good reason. This thread is a perfect example. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/473 "2013-02-11T23:19:51Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > If laws can change, then definitions can change. And? There will still be a need for a term to describe a lack of belief in any gods. So, I can just redefine monotheism to just mean Christianity, right? I’m sure all the Jewish and Muslim folk will just love that. Monotheism:Christianity :: atheism:New Jodhpurism (a new ethical structure I made up) Monotheism describes one aspect of Christianity. But it does not solely define Christianity and Christianity does not have a monopoly on monotheism. Likewise, atheism describes one aspect of New Jodhpurism, but New Jodhpurism is not solely defined by atheism and does not have a monopoly on atheism. Get it? ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/474 "2013-02-11T23:29:20Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Fighting ignorance does not mean hoping that everything changes. It will be much harder to fight ignorance if the definitions of words change for no good reason. This thread is a perfect example. Understood. But words do change and the changes can be powerful. From Karl Marx, Marxism developed. Then Marxism-Leninism and then Marxist-Lenist Mao-Tse-Tung Thought. You get the idea. If you were able to get God out of our lexicon it would be major accomplishment. Would you really want to stop at that point. After you get rid of ignorance, there must be something that needs to be accomplished? Why not create a word for it now? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/475 "2013-02-11T23:34:26Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Why bother fighting ignorance unless you are hoping that some change will come about in the future? That is the most compelling argument you’ve made yet. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/476 "2013-02-11T23:36:45Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Do you guys realize that posting garbage like this makes you look almost as dumb as **pchaos**? I mean, that’s a hard feat, but you almost manage it. > > How about we all stop inventing actions and motivations for groups we don’t actually understand, huh? I mean, Circle of Life? Really? And I bet you think that’s clever too… Yeah, I thought it was funny considering how pchoas suggested atheists need a crumbling cross for a logo, so I was curious how he felt about the cross. And yes, I thought Lenny Bruce’s bit along with the circle of life clever; and not sorry if you’re too humorless or witless to appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/477 "2013-02-11T23:40:38Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > If you were able to get God out of our lexicon it would be major accomplishment. Would you really want to stop at that point. After you get rid of ignorance, there must be something that needs to be accomplished? Why not create a word for it now? Where did you get the idea that atheists want to remove God from any lexicon? More importantly, why can you not understand that atheism isn’t a rejection of just _your_ particular deity? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/478 "2013-02-11T23:54:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > More importantly, why can you not understand that atheism isn’t a rejection of just _your_ particular deity? Even more importantly, it’s not a rejection of any deities (except in the sense Santa is “rejected”). It’s simple non-belief. **pchaos** is trying to posit some kind of a-holy war between Christians (again, not theists, as he doesn’t get other religions either) and whatever group into which he incorporates atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/479 "2013-02-12T00:05:33Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Yeah, I thought it was funny considering how pchoas suggested atheists need a crumbling cross for a logo . . . What it suggests to me is that he hasn’t learned anything from this whole goddamn discussion. He still thinks that “atheism” is “anti-Christianity.” It is beyond his ability to comprehend that atheism would also have to have a crumbling Star of David, a crumbling lightning bolt, a crumbling world-tree, a crumbling Reclining Buddha, a crumbling Queztlcoatl, a crumbling Kali, etc. A billion symbols, but he can only perceive it through the lens of his Christianity. (Oh, yeah, a crumbling Kyklopes!) > [@](#): > > And yes, I thought Lenny Bruce’s bit along with the circle of life clever . . . Yep! Someone wrote a story in which the Romans developed electricity, and Christians wore a little Electric Chair on their necklaces. Someone else created a statue of a woman dying on a cross, to indicate that suffering, sacrifice, and holiness are not unique to men. Naturally, a shit-load of ministers and priests issued a Christian fatwa against the work and the artist. These are not people who are tolerant of symbolic analysis! ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/480 "2013-02-12T00:10:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Whatever, honeybunch. If thoughts like that allow you to feel superior to a group of people you claim you just don’t encounter offline, then so be it. Personally, I gave up on trying to change your deliberate ignorance a while back and am only posting here so that others won’t think you might be correct just because nobody is bothering to correct you. It _is_ fun to poke him with sticks, isn’t it. [Poke… poke, poke.] Look, it’s moving! Well _poke_ it _again!_ Ok. [poke, poke] [Snicker] Look! it twitches when I poke it! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=25)