# Atheist Churches, Good or Bad Idea. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579 "2013-02-07T12:10:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/501 "2013-02-12T02:30:47Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Well that’s it. I’ll be an example of the ignorance surrounding atheism and you will be an example of the hope for a better life now in order to differentiate ourselves from religion. You do know I’m a theist, right? Just not as deliberately ignorant about atheism as you are. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/502 "2013-02-12T02:44:53Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > [QUOTE=The Other Waldo Pepper] > But you said you’re already taking them seriously. Why can’t others follow your example? I’m lucky, I’ve been fairly successful and have the free time to post on SDMB. But other Theists may not be in the same situation. They’re smart enough to figure out that you don’t believe in God but what it seems like you’re offering is pretty much what they already have. [/QUOTE] I’m not an atheist. Did you forget the part where you assured me it’s entirely rational for Jewish folks to believe Christianity is false? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/503 "2013-02-12T02:53:52Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > … We still need a term that includes the hope that after we remove the ignorance surrounding atheism we will develop something better. We have that term. It’s called “tolerance.” In any case I can no longer believe that you are being in any way sincere in this thread. To all, have fun. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/504 "2013-02-12T03:12:24Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Atheism is the lack of belief in any God or deity but **may offer something more sometime in the future**. How? And more importantly, _Why?_ Why do you insist we _must_ offer _any thing at all?_ Get it through your head. We don’t _care_ what you believe. It doesn’t affect us _at all_, unless you insist on imposing your beliefs on us. In which case, the _proper_ response is not “Change your beliefs to match mine”, but rather, “Leave me the fuck alone, asshole, or I’ll kick your ass!” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/505 "2013-02-12T03:54:20Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Hmmm…I thought I was poking you guys with sticks. When you first posted this, I figured that you were just being a bit of a smart-aleck even though several other posters considered it an admission of trolling. After reading your responses since that post, you are beginning to persuade me that you are, indeed, trolling. You have been told, repeatedly, over multiple pages of this thread, that atheism is neither more nor less than a lack of belief in (a) god. Despite that, you have ignored all the information provided to you and you continue to post odd comments about what atheists should do as a group as if they had a set of common beliefs. You have now begun posting comments unconnected to reality about the “ignorance” surrounding atheism and responding to questions about your absurd comments with one-liners and more meaningless comments. I am the Mod who is most willing to give a poster the benefit of the doubt when it comes to accusations of trolling, (mostly because I have seen a lot of people with really odd beliefs and manners of thinking), but if you persuade me that you are trolling, I will move to curtail your posting privileges. Take some time to re-read the threads in which you have participated, paying attention to what others have posted. Try to figure out what those posts mean. Stop projecting your beliefs onto others. This schtick has grown tiresome and it will not continue. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/506 "2013-02-12T05:10:13Z")
i’m new around here … I’ve had my share of locals trying to pick on me, so I’m not attacking pchaos or trying to tell you-all what to do, BUT, man, it really seems like this guy is having fun at you-all’s expense and your patient re-hashing of tolerant Q&A isn’t getting you anywhere … your swinging on a line here. Is anybody else feeling like the problem isn’t that explanations fall on deaf ears, but that you-all are on the business end of a tiresome joke? If you’re enjoying this, have at it, but I get a real “ring the doorbell and run” vibe from pchaos. ---
**Author:** ![MrPestus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e79b87/32.png) [@MrPestus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrPestus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/507 "2013-02-12T07:50:12Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Now that you mention it, I’m a (pretty passive) member of the Secular Humanist Society of New York, which is meeting this weekend to celebrate the anniversary of [Darwin’s birth](http://www.meetup.com/shsny-org), but I would never describe it as a church, nor would any of its members. I was thinking about the fundamental differences between these groups and churches, besides the actual belief systems, and I find that both churches of religious affiliation, and atheistic or skeptical thinking groups meet to articulate and cohere their belief systems. The way this is done between the two types of groups is different, meaning that in an atheistic group a member uses logic and reason to give his or her word merit, whereas in a church you would have to be part of the clergy for this to be true. I abhor the idea of clergy, it makes me uncomfortable to accept someone else’s ideas with out question. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/508 "2013-02-12T13:08:51Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > There are, in the sense that there’s an ethical system, and a philosophy of life and meaning and values, bound up in religion that’s not found in belief in Santa Claus. Someone passing from belief in Santa to disbelief doesn’t have much of an adjustment to make; someone passing from Christianity to atheism does. What are acceptable morals? Where did life come from? Will my Christian friends still speak to me? To child there is hope of getting things they ask for,they have to be good to get it, “He sees you when your sleeping, he knows when you awake, he knows if you are good or bad , so be good for goodness sake”. Sounds just like a religious teaching about a God. Comes down the chimmey,(like a spiri)t, an impossible thing for a regular human to do. See the simularities? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/509 "2013-02-12T13:24:58Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Ahhh…you’re starting to figure out that consistency is not one of my strong points. > > But to me it makes perfect sense. Metaphorically speaking, the Second Coming will occur in my lifetime. However in response to Human Action, the actual Second Coming when Jesus will appear in all his glory. I don’t expect that to happen in my lifetime. Better read your Bible in Matthew 16, and see that Jesus said he would return in his father’s glory with his angels, while some of them still standing there were still alive;it didn’t happen,nor was it recorded. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/510 "2013-02-12T13:36:48Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > In many ways that disbelief is a plus, however, why stop there? Once the ignorance surrounding atheism is removed, there must be hope for a better life. If your going to keep the word atheism, then you need a word to describe the removal of ignorance and the better life your hoping for. This is one of the more opaque statements I’ve ever read on this board, so if I completely misinterpret you, the blame is yours. I _think_ you’re still stuck on the proposition that atheism has no ethical system or explanations for the origin of life. To you, this is a flaw, and indicates that atheism is incomplete. I think this is what you mean by atheism being “at the beginning stages of pulling itself together.” I will restate: atheism is complete. It is the lack of belief in gods. You may ask, how does an atheist know right from wrong? Or, using your previous examples, how does an atheist explain how the universe came to exist, or how the human hand developed, whether he should charge up a hill with fellow Marines, or whether he should get a present for his mother on her 80th birthday? When other posters tell you that atheism has nothing to say on these matters, you seem to take it to mean that atheism isn’t finished yet, and atheists need to gather in churches and turn atheism into a more expansive philosophy, and until they do, it has little to offer. I will offer an analogy: say I was curious about Christianity, and asked you about it. If I asked what Christianity had to say about the zone defense in basketball, and you admitted that it had nothing to say on that topic, would I be right in dismissing Christianity as incomplete? Saying you should come back when you and the other Christians have more to offer? Answer: no, that’s not a meaningful critique of Christianity. No philosophy is universal and all-encompassing, and it’s senseless to criticize a belief for what it _doesn’t_ include. That’s what you’ve been doing, criticizing atheism not for what it _is_, but for what it _is not_. So, I challenge you, if you sincerely would like to know how atheists can make moral decisions about charging hills and birthdays without a belief in a god, to start a new thread on that topic, as this one’s pretty well burnt out. Just understand that all the answers you get will be drawing on concepts that are not, themselves, atheism, such as humanism, consequentialism, or deontology. > [@pchaos](#): > > That’s horrible, Human Action is going to be so disappointed in me. There’s a familiar pattern to theists who make honest inquiries about atheism. They often begin with the assumption that atheists are angry at God, as you did, or that deep down they actually do believe in some kind of god. Over time, if they are honest and capable of learning, they accept what atheism actually is, and can then discuss it intelligently. Similarly, atheists sometimes fall into contempt for theists, considering them to be stupid, sheep-like, and oppressive. Over time, if they are honest and capable of learning, they accept that theists have just as much individuality as they do, and that merely being an atheist doesn’t make you smarter or better than anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/511 "2013-02-12T13:39:32Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > To child there is hope of getting things they ask for,they have to be good to get it, > “He sees you when your sleeping, he knows when you awake, he knows if you are good or bad , so be good for goodness sake”. Sounds just like a religious teaching about a God. Comes down the chimmey,(like a spiri)t, an impossible thing for a regular human to do. See the simularities? Sure, there is some similarity, the idea of being judged for one’s actions from afar by a supernatural being, and punished or rewarded accordingly. But **pchaos** ’s point stands, rejecting belief in Santa Claus is much less impactful than rejecting belief in Christianity, because there’s a church involved, and much more of your complete worldview is wrapped up in Christianity than Santaism: creation, the soul, the afterlife. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/512 "2013-02-12T13:57:45Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > But **pchaos** ’s point stands, rejecting belief in Santa Claus is much less impactful than rejecting belief in Christianity, because there’s a church involved, and much more of your complete worldview is wrapped up in Christianity than Santaism: creation, the soul, the afterlife. O,yeah? Well, mister know-it-all the A-Santaist, then it should be easy for you to explain how do the presents get through the chimeney if there is no Santa. Plus, if there are no flying reindeer, why should I get out of bed in the morning? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/513 "2013-02-12T14:01:16Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > i’m new around here … I’ve had my share of locals trying to pick on me, so I’m not attacking pchaos or trying to tell you-all what to do, BUT, man, it really seems like this guy is having fun at you-all’s expense and your patient re-hashing of tolerant Q&A isn’t getting you anywhere .. your swinging on a line here. Is anybody else feeling like the problem isn’t that explanations fall on deaf ears, but that you-all are on the business end of a tiresome joke? > > If you’re enjoying this, have at it, but I get a real “ring the doorbell and run” vibe from pchaos. It’s entirely possible, but after seeing other posters with a “unique religious outlook” in action \kanicbird\ over the years you do come to realize that there are many, many people on the internet who say the sort of things **pchaos** has been saying in good faith. Poe’s Law is a bitch. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/514 "2013-02-12T14:04:44Z")
And, even if a given participant is being disingenuous in his (or her) posts, this type of thing still gives us the opportunity to be all rational on his ass. Helps to maintain this place’s reputation as a board where \*any \*question can get a reasoned response. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/515 "2013-02-12T14:25:58Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > But **pchaos** ’s point stands, rejecting belief in Santa Claus is much less impactful than rejecting belief in Christianity, because there’s a church involved, and much more of your complete worldview is wrapped up in Christianity than Santaism: creation, the soul, the afterlife. Human Action, I like responding to your posts because you always are fair to my views. Also, I would like to admit to a bias. I believe that I’m a doer. When I took a year off from law school, I wasn’t sure that was the right field for me because I wasn’t good at word games and just making money wasn’t that appealing. I had other options, but I chose to go back. I realized that if I really wanted to be active in civic affairs that a law degree would be a plus. I would like to apologize to the Board for the feathers I’ve ruffled, but my comments were sincere. I look at this Board and see all the potential and then say darn…I couldn’t get them motivated. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/516 "2013-02-12T14:37:16Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Human Action, I like responding to your posts because you always are fair to my views. Also, I would like to admit to a bias. I believe that I’m a doer. When I took a year off from law school, I wasn’t sure that was the right field for me because I wasn’t good at word games and just making money wasn’t that appealing. > > I had other options, but I chose to go back. I realized that if I really wanted to be active in civic affairs that a law degree would be a plus. > > I would like to apologize to the Board for the feathers I’ve ruffled, but my comments were sincere. I look at this Board and see all the potential and then say darn…I couldn’t get them motivated. Motivated to do _ **what** _, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/517 "2013-02-12T14:37:24Z")
Couldn’t get them motivated to do what? Find Jesus? ETA: Ninja’d. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/518 "2013-02-12T14:40:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Couldn’t get them motivated to do what? Find Jesus? > > ETA: Ninja’d. No. To go beyond there’s no God… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/519 "2013-02-12T14:42:09Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Motivated to do _ **what** _, exactly? > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Couldn’t get them motivated to do what? Fix a philosophical deficiency that doesn’t exist, and which **pchaos** only believes exists because he doesn’t grasp the idea that atheism isn’t a religion and atheists don’t want it to be one. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/520 "2013-02-12T14:42:49Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > No. To go beyond there’s no God… “Beyond” in what direction? There are unlimited horizons everywhere for everyone, believer or non-believer, if they allow themselves to follow their interests. Just because there is no organized migration does not mean no one is moving. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=27)