# Atheist Churches, Good or Bad Idea. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579 "2013-02-07T12:10:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/681 "2013-02-14T15:35:18Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > No, of course not. Pretty please. You lot could use some organizing. You’re all over the place with all your gods and what to eat and what not to eat and when to stand and when to sit. How do you keep track? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/682 "2013-02-14T15:37:03Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > No, of course not. So help me understand _your_ point. There are already small, specialized groups of atheists organized to do various things - community outreach, charity, education, etc. There are already small, specialized groups of monotheists (churches, synagogues, mosques, etc) organized to do various things - community outreach, charity, education, etc. Why is there a need for a **general** atheist organization is there’s no corresponding need for a **general** monotheist organization? You clearly assume this to be the case, but you’ve provided ZERO evidence for why. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/683 "2013-02-14T15:40:25Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > I was wondering why this thread was still running. The ignorance in here is stunning. Pchaos wasn’t taught where I’m from, and some of us are here to learn another language. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/684 "2013-02-14T15:42:03Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > You clearly assume this to be the case, but you’ve provided ZERO evidence for why. You are overstating your case. I know that you made some valid points, but I have also. If they weren’t valid there wouldn’t be atheists trying to start churches. All I’m saying is that if you don’t believe that a church is the right form for this organization. Why don’t atheists try another form? And size does help. The Salvation Army attracts a lot of donations from all religious backgrounds. And I’m sure that atheists also donate to them. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/685 "2013-02-14T15:45:12Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > and some of us are here to learn another language. Hehe… yes, indeed. And marvel at the locals. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/686 "2013-02-14T15:49:22Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > If they weren’t valid there wouldn’t be atheists trying to start churches. This makes zero sense. As repeatedly demonstrated in this thread, atheists start their own organizations _ **for their own reasons - and NOT YOUR REASONS** _. You can’t claim validity to your arguments when [A] you didn’t know they existed in the first place (see earlier posts in this thread) and \*\* their purported reason for existence directly contradicts your arguments. > [@pchaos](#): > > Why don’t atheists try another form? Monotheists can’t settle on a single house of worship (churches, synagogues, mosques, etc). “If none of those work for all monotheists, why don’t monotheists try another form?” Why do you keep dodging this point? > [@pchaos](#): > > The Salvation Army attracts a lot of donations from all religious backgrounds. And I’m sure that atheists also donate to them. And what’s your point? As mentioned above, the “Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation” is not religious. I’m sure it attracts a lot of donations from all religious backgrounds. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/687 "2013-02-14T15:50:37Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > You are overstating your case. I know that you made some valid points, but I have also. If they weren’t valid there wouldn’t be atheists trying to start churches. > > All I’m saying is that if you don’t believe that a church is the right form for this organization. Why don’t atheists try another form? > > And size does help. The Salvation Army attracts a lot of donations from all religious backgrounds. And I’m sure that atheists also donate to them. Where are atheists trying to start churches? Since you state ‘trying’ - that implies they are failing - cite please. And answer the questions related to your assumptions on the prior page related to charitable donations from wealthy atheists. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/688 "2013-02-14T15:53:12Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > All I’m saying is that if you don’t believe that a church is the right form for this organization. Why don’t atheists try another form? We are. The form of NOT starting another church/organization. We’re like hipsters but without the hip vibe and bumper stickers. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/689 "2013-02-14T16:01:06Z")
I don’t want to be a member of an organization. I’m sure there are a lot of people like me. Do you think I could start an organization just for us? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/690 "2013-02-14T16:24:45Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > You are overstating your case. I know that you made some valid points, but I have also. For some unknown definition “valid,” I suspect. > [@](#): > > If they weren’t valid there wouldn’t be atheists trying to start churches. They aren’t. (And I thought you were claiming they weren’t just a few posts ago. Can you make up your mind?) **Der Trihs** found one example of a church-ish group for atheists that started last month, and that’s the only example of an overtly atheistic church-type of group that has been posted to the entire thread. And that’s a brand new group that might be just for people who are in the process of leaving a religion; who knows if it will endure. Different atheists have different needs and they can organize on that basis as they see fit, but I think there’s little pent-up demand among atheists for a specifically atheist “church.” ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/691 "2013-02-14T18:22:45Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Good morning Raz and Guys, it’s a rhetorical device. When people are not really interested in an answer to their question they will put a period at the end of the question. Wow. You make up your own rules and definitions for _everything_ don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/692 "2013-02-14T18:24:45Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Wow. > > You make up your own rules and definitions for _everything_ don’t you? It’s a lawyer thing. You wouldn’t understand. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/693 "2013-02-14T18:32:05Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It’s a lawyer thing. You wouldn’t understand. Because lawyers know that the best way to state their case is to use non-standard definitions, and that’s glory for you! ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/694 "2013-02-14T18:37:28Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Because lawyers know that the best way to state their case is to use non-standard definitions, and that’s glory for you! Well played, Humpty. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/695 "2013-02-14T19:17:04Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > Atheists demand question marks. If you are gonna head up this thing you should know that. Therefore, the Leader of Atheism should look like [this](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b0/Riddler-carrey.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/696 "2013-02-14T19:25:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Therefore, the Leader of Atheism should look like [this](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b0/Riddler-carrey.jpg). I prefer [this.](http://doctorwho.maxupdates.tv/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Colin-Baker%E2%80%99s-ties-with-Doctor.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/697 "2013-02-14T19:32:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Therefore, the Leader of Atheism should look like [this](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b0/Riddler-carrey.jpg). I’m sorry, that should have been phrased as “Therefore, the Leader of Atheism should look like [this](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b0/Riddler-carrey.jpg)?” You cannot be the Atheist Leader (but I’m still gonna picture you in that suit). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/698 "2013-02-14T19:34:14Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Because lawyers know that the best way to state their case is to use non-standard definitions, and that’s glory for you! “That’s why you’re the judge and I’m the law-talking guy!” ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/699 "2013-02-14T19:38:06Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I am one of a large group of people who do not watch football. By **pchaos** ’s reasoning, the fact that all us non-football-watchers don’t all watch the same not-football TV show is indicative of a failing on our part to better co-ordinate the kind of not-football we watch and to persuade football watchers that our not-football show is better than their football show. It’s even worse than that. Some of us non-football-watchers don’t even watch non-football-TV. We surf the web, instead, so you non-football-watchers who watch non-football TV shows have to persecute us non-football-watchers who are are heretic non-TV-watchers. You know, just like the Christian Catholics persecuted the Christian Protestants (and _vice verse_) during Europe’s religious wars a few hundred years ago, or the way the Muslim Sunnis persecute the Muslim Shi’ites (and, again, _vice verse_) today. “Web-surfing non-football-watchers UNITE! DEATH to all the TV-watching non-football-watcher heretics!” [sub]That’s my rallying cry, and I’m sticking to it![/sub] OK, seriously, now… I’ve been thinking about this subject, off-and-on, for the few days this thread has been here and I’ve been reading and posting in it, and I believe I’ve come up with an analogy that illustrates **pchaos** ’s problem in understanding ‘atheism’. Please indulge me as I elaborate: We all have cognitive models. Think of them like a Windows file system, with subfolders within folders. Our friend, **pchaos** , has a folder labeled “Religion”, with a subtitle of “Christianity”. Inside that “Religion:Christianity” folder are subfolders labeled “God”, “Christ”, “Morality”, “Origin of the Universe”, “Origin of Life”, “Origin of Humans”, etc. His error starts with assuming that _everyone_ has a “Religion” folder. We atheists don’t. His error continues with an assumption that everyone’s “Religion” folder contains subfolders similar to his own. It’s a reasonable (but wrong) assumption, given that “Religion:Judaism” or “Religion:Islam” _also_ contains subfolders such as “God” and “Morality”, and they put something kinda similar into it. There’s even some vague similarity in the subfolder “Christ”. Muslims put Mohammed in a (vaguely) similar subfolder, Buddhists put “Buddha” into (again, a vaguely) similar folder, and even Jews have a vaguely similar folder labeled “Messiah”. They just say it’s currently empty, and are presumably waiting for something to come along to fill it. The problem comes in with an apparent assumption that everyone has the same cognitive models (i.e. folders and subfolders, in my analogy), just with different labels on the folders. This isn’t the case, and he’ll never understand “Atheism” until and unless he realizes that it’s _not_ a “Religion:Atheism” folder, but rather a subfolder labeled “God”, not inside a “Religion” folder, but rather is inside a totally different folder labeled “Ideas I’ve encountered that aren’t actually useful”, and containing nothing more than a text file that says “This one has no evidence that makes it believable”. Many of us append “but I’m willing to look again, if evidence is presented” to the text file, others of us append “in fact, I believe there _isn’t_ one”, or “I’m convinced there isn’t one, and ain’t willing to look at any evidence.” And there are _still_ more possibilities than those. Until he understands that other people’s cognitive models do _not_ resemble his, and his does not correspond to theirs, will he have any hope of understanding theirs. Sorry, **tomndebb** , and **Marley23** , but he ain’t a troll. OK, this is probably going to get me a warning; He’s certainly an idiot. But he isn’t a troll. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/700 "2013-02-14T20:05:16Z")
I think that pretty much what I surmised. The action of going to Church is so central and basic an activity, somebody not engaging in it altogether is unthinkable. It’d be like if someone told you that they don’t eat beets. Well, what do you eat? You can’t say nothing. We all need to eat SOMEthing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=36)