# Atheist Churches, Good or Bad Idea. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579 "2013-02-07T12:10:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/701 "2013-02-14T20:08:41Z")
I think it’s just a case of rigid thinking, not necessarily idiocy. **pchaos** seems to struggle to revise the incorrect assumptions at the top of his ‘hierarchy of thoughts about atheism’, which means that the conclusions at the bottom of the hierarchy will always be flawed. Imagine a chain of A -\> B -\> C -\> D. D is wrong because A is wrong, but **pchaos** only wants to discuss D. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/702 "2013-02-14T20:52:39Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Imagine a chain of A -\> B -\> C -\> D. D is wrong because A is wrong, but **pchaos** only wants to discuss D. You may have expressed it better than I did. In fact, I like your analogy better. You nailed it better than I did. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/703 "2013-02-14T20:52:58Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > I was wondering why this thread was still running. The ignorance in here is stunning. I’d assumed it was an attempt to keep the ignorance all in one place. 🙂 But I can see that if someone’s life was inextricably interwoven with a social organization (in this case a Church) that it could be simply bamboozling to encounter people who have no such structure (or even anything similar). ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/704 "2013-02-14T20:55:25Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Are you going to answer the questions put to you on the prior page related to your assumptions about well known atheists and their donation practices? You can check [patheos.com](http://patheos.com) for donor habits of atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/705 "2013-02-14T21:00:20Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > You may have expressed it better than I did. In fact, I like your analogy better. You nailed it better than I did. which real doesn’t make a difference, because the both of you are trying to nail Jell-O. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/706 "2013-02-14T21:00:33Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > You can check [patheos.com](http://patheos.com) for donor habits of atheists. Hardly an unbiased site - and how does that back up your assumptions? you’re going to have to do better than that. (I can’t find on the front page any such list or article) You still need to address the questions at hand and post relevant information - or, admit it is an assumption on your part. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/707 "2013-02-14T21:04:33Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > You can check [patheos.com](http://patheos.com) for donor habits of atheists. OK, I looked. I can’t see your point on that site. All I saw was an abysmally bad website. Care to enlighten us heathens? ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/708 "2013-02-14T21:07:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > which real doesn’t make a difference, because the both of you are trying to nail Jell-O. I have a theory on how that can be done. Let me do my experiments, then I will get back to you… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/709 "2013-02-14T21:16:31Z")
Oh this is funny. For those too cautious to click that link it goes to nothing that says anything about the donation habits of atheists. It’s a site that “hosts conversations about faith.” But searching I could find an article by that group about the donation habits of atheists. [Interesting reading](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/08/22/are-atheists-being-stingy-when-it-comes-to-charity/): > [@](#): > > Money you give to fatten your megachurch pastor’s wallet and proselytize to people counts as charity? Doesn’t that skew the results? > Well, let’s see what happens when you exclude donations given to churches and religious groups. When you do that, the least religious states (in the Northeast) take the lead … “Religious states give more money to churches” would be more accurate… but then no one would care. … the study shows that the churchier regions are generally stingier toward “secular” charities. You know, like those secular categories of the hungry, the thirsty, the stranger, the naked, the sick and the imprisoned. Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, both minimally agnostic if not atheists, give to secular organizations. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/710 "2013-02-14T21:22:58Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’m not making that assumption because I don’t have that kind of bucks. > > These are atheists with big bucks that are deciding to donate to big churches or charitable organizations. They are making these donations instead of donating to atheist organizations. Excuse me??!! :eek: 😕 Are you actually trying to suggest that part of the definition of what a charitable organization is, is that it is a religious organization?! I certainly get that impression from postings like that! ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/711 "2013-02-14T22:19:22Z")
Anybody, please correct me if I get this wrong. **pchaos** ’s chain of reasoning is: 1. Reading of website shows that religious people donate more to their religions. 2. Taking out giving to churches shows religious people give mostly to their churches. 3. Website concludes atheists actually donate more to charity per capita - just not to churches. 4. Therefore, if atheists donate, they donate to religions, including churches. 5. Profit??? Is that really his conclusion? I think I’m officially in the confused boat, as that makes less sense than most of the already specious reasoning in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/712 "2013-02-14T23:27:44Z")
Gals and Guys, You win…listless and apathetic is the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/713 "2013-02-14T23:28:58Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Gals and Guys, > > You win…listless and apathetic is the way to go. And THAT is exactly why your sincerity is being called into question. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/714 "2013-02-14T23:29:39Z")
Nobody said that, so I don’t think anybody won. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/715 "2013-02-14T23:48:21Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > .listless and apathetic is the way to go. [snark]You’ve obviously met my friend: Tad Disingenuous[/snark] You’ve been engaged over multiple days with multiple theists and atheists who have energetically described exactly where your reasoning is going wrong. Makes me want to know your definitions for “listless” and “apathetic”. They obviously don’t match everybody else’s. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/716 "2013-02-15T00:03:20Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Gals and Guys, > > You win…listless and apathetic is the way to go. Those kids in the Atheist Scouts don’t look too listless to me. Nor does Bill Gates’s $36 billion secular charity. 15 pages of people on this board telling you you’re mistaken is hardly listless, you yourself have commented more than once your surprise that this thread is still going. I’ll take our brand of listless over your brand of activism any day. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/717 "2013-02-15T00:06:44Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > I’ll take our brand of listless over your brand of activism any day. Gals and Guys, I’m just debating, don’t take me too seriously. It seems like people are active doing good things. That’s great. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/718 "2013-02-15T00:13:01Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’m just debating, don’t take me too seriously. What’s your definition of “debating”? From the cheap seats, what you’re doing looks nothing like debating, as debating carries the implication of reasoned thought and connection to reality. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/719 "2013-02-15T00:15:09Z")
(Adds “debate” to the list of words which mean something different when used by \*\*pchaos \*\*.) ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/720 "2013-02-15T00:21:08Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Gals and Guys, > > I’m just debating, don’t take me too seriously. It seems like people are active doing good things. That’s great. You’re damned right they are. And keep your patronization to yourself. You’re not debating, you’re insulting. You started this thread ostensibly to ask why atheists don’t have one big overarching church. Turns out that’s not really what you’re asking, is it? You’re asking why there aren’t any atheist organizations at all, and you’re asking that because you’re completely ignorant of the ones that are out there. And when it’s pointed out to you how much atheists actually DO, you called us listless. Despite 2000 years worth of Christian history, the biggest fucking charity in the world was founded by an atheist. When you filter out donations to churches, the non-religious give more to actual charities than the religious do. And you come in here out of Christian kindness to help us poor widdle atheists organize? Perhaps Christians need atheists to do their organizing for them! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=37)