# Atheist Churches, Good or Bad Idea. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579 "2013-02-07T12:10:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/61 "2013-02-07T19:59:03Z")
We got married in the Ethical Cultural Society in Philadelphia, which I think probably fits the bill pretty well. We had a leader who did the ceremony and interviewed us, and many of the usual trappings, but no God or gods. Worked out pretty well. However, there are some practical considerations that keep this from catching on. I think most religious people only show up to church during holidays - goes for Christians and Jews, at least. We don’t have any good atheist holidays to celebrate. Second, we don’t have the threat thing going. On Stan Freberg’s boxed set there is an ad he did for the Lutherans, which was the “go to church, it might be later than you think” variety. And we’d need some decent songs. Or Tom Cruise. ---
**Author:** ![andrewbub](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@andrewbub](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andrewbub)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/62 "2013-02-07T22:06:30Z")
one reason i’m atheist is because i don’t want to go to church. an atheist church would be like a cocktail mixer ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/63 "2013-02-07T22:34:58Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Using the[Dictionary definition of “Church”](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/church) - > > There is no definition of Church that fits an athiestic ‘get together’. There is no definition of “jam” that fits a basketball game or stand-up comedy show. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but we’ve all been running around using words and phrases that fly in the face of Merriam-Webster behind your back for years. We thought you knew. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/64 "2013-02-07T22:40:41Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > What kind of topics would the guest speakers cover? I’d guess basically the same kind of topics that religious churches cover. Whenever I go to church, the sermons are about love, compassion, forgiveness, charity, mindfulness… They read some stories out of a really old book to convince people that these are important qualities that God wants you to have, but most of the lessons work work just as well with parables and studies from real life and no mention of God whatsoever. I think a great topic for a sermon at atheist church would be about the Iterated Prisoner’s Dilemma. What’s not to like about a game theoretic demonstration that “do unto others” is a good idea. As far as I can tell, there’s already a pretty good [Atheist Church](http://www.ted.com/) that broadcasts its sermons on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/65 "2013-02-07T23:19:21Z")
An Atheist Church makes about the same sense as a Vegan Steakhouse. (To be fair, I can see that some people like organized groups… I know many people are more social than me. But _church_ still seems the wrong word). ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/66 "2013-02-07T23:45:26Z")
I can’t say it would be a “bad” thing, but I’m not sure what the use would be. If you want to hang out, well there’s friends, the pub, clubs. If you want to hear interesting lectures on the subject of science there are TED talks, or university lectures. If you want to understand some ethics drivel read Kant, then talk about it with your mates down t’pub. If you want a sing-song, start a campfire. If you want to do good, do good. All the ingredients are already out there in more appealing forms. But yeah, if you really want to, go ahead and start a “church” for atheists. Seems kinda like kids playing house, but whatever floats your boat. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/67 "2013-02-07T23:53:20Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I’d guess basically the same kind of topics that religious churches cover. Whenever I go to church, the sermons are about love, compassion, forgiveness, charity, mindfulness… They read some stories out of a really old book to convince people that these are important qualities that God wants you to have, but most of the lessons work work just as well with parables and studies from real life and no mention of God whatsoever. Sounds good to me. I’ll just hide my bible under my jacket when I go in. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/68 "2013-02-08T00:20:53Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > What would it be called then? A social club. Cheyenne WY might be a good place to start one… ---
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/69 "2013-02-08T00:21:29Z")
Deosn’t seem good or bad to me, if those who do not believe in God wish to join together as a church (“non-faith community”?) it might be pleasant for them and no harm to anyone else. But I have to admit I thought of an old joke about Unitarians, something along the line of a handful of people sitting in Church not talking about God… ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/70 "2013-02-08T00:40:37Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > There is no definition of “jam” that fits a basketball game or stand-up comedy show. > > I hate to be the one to break it to you, but we’ve all been running around using words and phrases that fly in the face of Merriam-Webster behind your back for years. We thought you knew. You don’t read much, do you? > **[Definition of JAM](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jam)** > > a food made by boiling fruit and sugar to a thick consistency… See the full definition > [@](#): > > Definition of JAM > intransitive verb > 1 > a : to become blocked or wedged > b : to become unworkable through the jamming of a movable part > 2 > : to force one’s way into a restricted space > 3 > : to take part in a jam session > 4 > : dunk 2 > transitive verb > 1 > a : to press into a close or tight position \ > b (1) : to cause to become wedged so as to be unworkable \ (2) : to make unworkable by jamming > c : to block passage of : obstruct > d : to fill often to excess : pack \ > 2 > : to push forcibly; especially : to apply (brakes) suddenly and forcibly —used with on > 3 > : crush, bruise > 4 > a : to make unintelligible by sending out interfering signals or messages > b : to make (as a radar apparatus) ineffective by jamming signals or by causing reflection of radar waves > 5 > : to block, crowd, or bump (a pass receiver) near the line of scrimmage in football > 6 > : to pitch inside to (a batter) > **[jam](https://www.thefreedictionary.com/jam)** > > Definition, Synonyms, Translations of jam by The Free Dictionary > [@](#): > > am 1 (jm) > v. jammed, jam·ming, jams > v.tr. > > 1. To drive or wedge forcibly into a tight position: jammed the cork in the bottle. > 2. To activate or apply (a brake) suddenly. Often used with on: jammed the brakes on. > 3. To cause (moving parts, for example) to lock into an unworkable position: jammed the typewriter keys. > 4. > > a. To pack (items, for example) to excess; cram: jammed my clothes into the suitcase. > b. To fill (a container or space) to overflowing: I jammed the suitcase with clothes. Fans jammed the hallway after the concert. > 5. To block, congest, or clog: a drain that was jammed by debris. > 6. To crush or bruise: jam a finger. > 7. Electronics To interfere with or prevent the clear reception of (broadcast signals) by electronic means. > 8. Baseball To throw an inside pitch to (a batter), especially to prevent the batter from hitting the ball with the thicker part of the bat. > v.intr. > > 1. To become wedged or stuck. > 2. To become inoperable: The computer keyboard jammed. > 3. To force one’s way into or through a limited space. > 4. Music To participate in a jam session. > 5. Basketball To make a dunk shot. > n. > 6. The act of jamming or the condition of being jammed. > 7. A crush or congestion of people or things in a limited space: a traffic jam. > 8. A trying situation. See Synonyms at predicament. so, there is, in fact, dictionary definitions that fit the thing you just claimed didn’t exist. Same dictionary site - there is not a “non-religious” definition of “Church” > **[church](https://www.thefreedictionary.com/church)** > > Definition, Synonyms, Translations of church by The Free Dictionary > [@](#): > > church (chûrch) > n. > > 1. A building for public, especially Christian worship. > 2. often Church > a. The company of all Christians regarded as a spiritual body. > b. A specified Christian denomination: the Presbyterian Church. > c. A congregation. > 3. Public divine worship in a church; a religious service: goes to church at Christmas and Easter. > 4. The clerical profession; clergy. > 5. Ecclesiastical power as distinguished from the secular: the separation of church and state. > tr.v. churched, church·ing, church·es > To conduct a church service for, especially to perform a religious service for (a woman after childbirth). > adj. > Of or relating to the church; ecclesiastical. Now, I know that lots of people use lots of words to mean things other than their dictionary meanings - but to call an atheist gathering place a “church” generally flies in the face of what atheism is, and only serves to further the misconception that some have that atheism is a “religion” or “substitute” for religion. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/71 "2013-02-08T00:43:08Z")
Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/72 "2013-02-08T00:48:19Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Now, I know that lots of people use lots of words to mean things other than their dictionary meanings - but to call an atheist gathering place a “church” generally flies in the face of what atheism is, and only serves to further the misconception that some have that atheism is a “religion” or “substitute” for religion. Hopefully, you didn’t include me among that group of “lots of people,” but I’m improving I now have a Webster’s both at home and at work. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/73 "2013-02-08T01:21:02Z")
> [@simster](#): > > You don’t read much, do you? > > [JAM Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jam) > > [Jam - definition of jam by The Free Dictionary](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/jam) > > so, there is, in fact, dictionary definitions that fit the thing you just claimed didn’t exist. > > Same dictionary site - there is not a “non-religious” definition of “Church” > > [Church - definition of church by The Free Dictionary](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/church) > > Now, I know that lots of people use lots of words to mean things other than their dictionary meanings - but to call an atheist gathering place a “church” generally flies in the face of what atheism is, and only serves to further the misconception that some have that atheism is a “religion” or “substitute” for religion. I’m seeing where dunking a basketball can be called jamming the ball. Wait a sec, are you saying that the “Def Comedy Jam” at the club tonight alludes to folks “jamming” into close quarters to hear the comedians? Really? I guess we’ll be having a “Def Bus Ridin” Jam" on the way home if the bus is really full. So far, I guess you’re saying that a “monster jam” describes “jamming the ball into the hoop”, but a comedy jam is all about the audience squeezing into their seats. I really like the imagery of “jam” meaning “stirred up and sweet” as Jazz players use it a whole heck-of-a-lot more. These seem like vague and tenuous definitions, as they are used colloquially, but I’ll concede there’s at least a relationship between the concepts and some of the definitions. I think the parallels of “a service where like minded people get together regularly to have fellowship and do good works” with a church service are at least as reasonable as the connections you’re implying for “jam”. Certainly no less appropriate that using the word “church” for “Church of Scientology”. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/74 "2013-02-08T01:40:10Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > I’m seeing where dunking a basketball can be called jamming the ball. > > Wait a sec, are you saying that the “Def Comedy Jam” at the club tonight alludes to folks “jamming” into close quarters to hear the comedians? Really? I guess we’ll be having a “Def Bus Ridin” Jam" on the way home if the bus is really full. > So far, I guess you’re saying that a “monster jam” describes “jamming the ball into the hoop”, but a comedy jam is all about the audience squeezing into their seats. > > I really like the imagery of “jam” meaning “stirred up and sweet” as Jazz players use it a whole heck-of-a-lot more. These seem like vague and tenuous definitions, as they are used colloquially, but I’ll concede there’s at least a relationship between the concepts and some of the definitions. > > I think the parallels of “a service where like minded people get together regularly to have fellowship and do good works” with a church service are at least as reasonable as the connections you’re implying for “jam”. Certainly no less appropriate that using the word “church” for “Church of Scientology”. a comedy ‘jam’ would be using the intr.V similar to a musicians ‘jam’. A whole lotta comedians getting together to do their comedic thing. The ‘Church of Scientology’ is still a religious thing - regardless of its attempts to claim otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/75 "2013-02-08T01:42:56Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Hopefully, you didn’t include me among that group of “lots of people,” but I’m improving I now have a Webster’s both at home and at work. When you prove you are being genuine with your word usage instead of this game you have been playing, maybe -but you have a lot of work to do. But, to be clear - I was not talking about you specifically or in general - everyone, everyday, uses words and phrases outside of thier traditional meanings - In this case - an “athiestic church” is non-sensical in that Church has a very specific meaning and connotation that is usually _not_ altered in the same way that ‘jam’ might be. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/76 "2013-02-08T01:47:57Z")
Maybe an Order or Society, like [Tulpanism](http://www.paradoxtulpaarts.com/HistPg1.html) ? ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/77 "2013-02-08T01:51:57Z")
You know, simster, on re-reading your post, I see that you’re not getting my sense of humor, so, to clarify, let me be a little more direct in regard to “word” and “definitions”. Will you concede that, although marriage has several meanings, the conservative traditionalists who were (and still are) opposed to re-defining “marriage” to include gay unions were trying to limit the meaning of “marriage” (as it relates to legal and ‘moral’ relationships) to “a union between a man and a woman”? They didn’t want “us” (liberals) to add content to that part of the definition of “marriage”. To them it must remain “the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex …” Now, I believe the politically correct position for us to assume here is that gays may be “married” and so marriage is partially re-defined. Why not “church”, also? If we can change the definition of marriage and remove the limitation of “opposite sex”, why not redefine “church” and remove the limitations of allusions to supernatural beings? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/78 "2013-02-08T01:58:05Z")
So **pchaos** , where do you stand on your initial question? Do you understand these gatherings and how they are and are not like churches? Do you think they’re good or bad? ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/79 "2013-02-08T02:01:19Z")
> [@simster](#): > > a comedy ‘jam’ would be using the intr.V similar to a musicians ‘jam’. A whole lotta comedians getting together to do their comedic thing. > > The ‘Church of Scientology’ is still a religious thing - regardless of its attempts to claim otherwise. FYI, a Jazz jam is not about a whole lotta musicians waiting their turn to get up one at a time to perform, it’s about combinations of players combining their talents in an impromptu manner, improvising over basic established outlines (standard changes), and creating a new performance based on rhythmic, harmonic, and melodic spontaneity. The word “jam” refers to fruit preserves … all stirred up … etc. Comedians are artists and some are very talented … I’ll only agree that the term “jam” is applicable to what they do when a group of them engages in pure improv, as on the TV show “Who’s Line is it Anyway”. Standing alone and delivering punchlines, no I don’t think so\> ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/80 "2013-02-08T02:10:13Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > You know, simster, on re-reading your post, I see that you’re not getting my sense of humor, so, to clarify, let me be a little more direct in regard to “word” and “definitions”. > > Will you concede that, although marriage has several meanings, the conservative traditionalists who were (and still are) opposed to re-defining “marriage” to include gay unions were trying to limit the meaning of “marriage” (as it relates to legal and ‘moral’ relationships) to “a union between a man and a woman”? > > They didn’t want “us” (liberals) to add content to that part of the definition of “marriage”. To them it must remain “the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex …” > > Now, I believe the politically correct position for us to assume here is that gays may be “married” and so marriage is partially re-defined. > > Why not “church”, also? If we can change the definition of marriage and remove the limitation of “opposite sex”, why not redefine “church” and remove the limitations of allusions to supernatural beings? I’m perfectly fine with re-defining words - I feel like it is a natural progression of language - similarly I might tell my alchoholic best friend “see you at church” when I really mean down at moe’s. “Jam” is a good example of a word that has been extended quite a bit - and gets modified in common usage. However, there usually has to be a good reason for the definition of a word to change drastically - Marriage - like you allude to - has that - it needs to move beyond its current religious trappings because it is no longer strictly a religious thing and because culturally it needs to, and it is a right/privilege/curse that ALL people should enjoy. ‘Church’ does not have that - yet - and (fortunately or not) the folks that are most invested in it _not_ changing are those that use it for its currently well established meaning - and would only use it at an ‘atheistic’ gathering to imply a connotation that does not exist. Until ‘Church’ != “place of worship” but instead == simply “gathering place” - it does not fit an Athiestic gathering. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=5)