# Atheist Churches, Good or Bad Idea. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579 "2013-02-07T12:10:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/121 "2013-02-08T15:25:58Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > A major reason for creating any type of institution is to pass the values to the kids and next generation. Off topic, but one of the things we enjoyed most about UU was their RE curriculum, including comparative religions. While we hoped our kids would share many of our most important values - including religion - we did not wish to indoctrinate them. But we recognized quickly that we were not going to effectively conduct our own comparative religions studies. I’m not going to discount the impact of our modeling/affirmation/etc., but I’m pretty satisfied with the effort we made to expose our kids to different beliefs rather than simply saying “believe what we say or you are a bad person.” Maybe grounds for another thread, but I wonder how often the kids of atheists find religion, and under what circumstances. Because when all of the various religions were presented to our kids as equally valid, and they were encouraged to apply any and all analytical tools to assess their merits, disbelief was a no-brainer for all 3. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/122 "2013-02-08T15:32:20Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > No. I’d probably look around the temple to see if there was a used OT that I could borrow lying around. What else do you think they would have? If you go to a service at a temple, you’ll find Bibles in the pews the same way you would at just about any Christian church. > [@pchaos](#): > > A major reason for creating any type of institution is to pass the values to the kids and next generation. This isn’t wrong. It’s just that the value here isn’t atheism because you don’t have to be an atheist to be a member. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/123 "2013-02-08T15:58:09Z")
There are [a variety of](http://www.shj.org/CongList.htm) [secular humanist Jewish congregations](http://www.shj.org/believe.htm). The basic philosophy: > [@](#): > > Humanistic Jews believe: > > Each Jew has the right to create a meaningful Jewish lifestyle free from supernatural authority and imposed tradition. > The goal of life is personal dignity and self-esteem. > The secular roots of Jewish life are as important as the religious ones. > The survival of the Jewish people needs a reconciliation between science, personal autonomy, and Jewish loyalty. > > Freedom from supernatural authority > Theistic religions assert that the ultimate source of wisdom and of the power of the solution to human problems is found outside of people - in a supernatural realm. Humanistic philosophy affirms that knowledge and power come from people and from the nature in which they live. … Here is [one particular group as illustration](http://www.secularjewishop.org/). Heritage. Social Action. Culture. Belonging. Discussion. There are lots of lessons to be learned from religious texts and traditions that those without god concepts can also appreciate and discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/124 "2013-02-08T16:01:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What else do you think they would have? If you go to a service at a temple, you’ll find Bibles in the pews the same way you would at just about any Christian church. Really? Bibles or Torah’s? I’ve never been to a synagoge service. Don’t think I’ve ever been inside one, come to think. I always gathered that the Torah was brought from the vault during service, not that everyone had their own little booklet in the pews. And if so wouldn’t it be in hebrew? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/125 "2013-02-08T16:10:20Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Really? > Bibles or Torah’s? We might be talking past each other here - or maybe I’m even more ignorant about this than I think I am. I’m talking about printed books containing the text of the Old Testament, prayers, and so on. > [@](#): > > I always gathered that the Torah was brought from the vault during service That’s correct. > [@](#): > > not that everyone had their own little booklet in the pews. But that can happen, too. The two aren’t exclusive and people like to read along. > [@](#): > > And if so wouldn’t it be in hebrew? I expect it would be in Hebrew and English. Most Jews in the U.S. don’t speak Hebrew. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/126 "2013-02-08T16:31:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > But that can happen, too. The two aren’t exclusive and people like to read along. That is possible, of course. I guess I assumed this not to be the case, due to my Catholic background. Until not too recent Catholics weren’t supposed to read the bible for themselves. When I used to go to Church there would be liturgic literature in the pews but still no bibles. So I thought the parading and reading of the Torah to be a big occasion during service, that ‘meh, I’ll read my own one, thank you.’ would kind of detract from the experience. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/127 "2013-02-08T16:32:44Z")
In Reformed Synagogues, the text is Hebrew and English, en face. In Orthodox synagogues, pure Hebrew. There are plenty of books for congregants to follow the service. How about “If you don’t know what goes on someplace, you ask, instead of asserting your ignorant prejudices as fact”? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/128 "2013-02-08T16:33:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why do we need any institution to replace it? We are not an organized group, we have no common interests, and we have no common goals. QFT. If there’s any single thing that this thread should have made clear, it’s that atheists aren’t organized and don’t even share common beliefs, except their lack of belief in a God or gods. Further, there’s no need, as **pchaos** implies, for an organized place of non-worship to even exist. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/129 "2013-02-08T16:36:57Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > So I thought the parading and reading of the Torah to be a big occasion during service, that ‘meh, I’ll read my own one, thank you.’ would kind of detract from the experience. They’re separate. It’s a big occasion, but it’s not like a whole temple of people can read from one scroll. And most American Jews don’t speak a lot of Hebrew, so a translation is useful. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/130 "2013-02-08T16:45:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [Rotary International](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_club) is secular: Perhaps officially, but I happen to know that one of our local Rotary Clubs used to begin their weekly lunch with a prayer by whatever minister was in the room. I think the organization has a “slant” towards deism on the theory that although we may each worship God by another name, it’s really all the same god. It’s hard for some people to believe that atheism exists if they’ve never been confronted with it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/131 "2013-02-08T16:57:33Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Perhaps officially, but I happen to know that one of our local Rotary Clubs used to begin their weekly lunch with a prayer by whatever minister was in the room. I think the organization has a “slant” towards deism on the theory that although we may each worship God by another name, it’s really all the same god. It’s hard for some people to believe that atheism exists if they’ve never been confronted with it. Reminds me of a caller I heard on the Larry King radio show many years ago: “I don’t know why the Hindus, Muslms, Christians and Jews can’t just get along-we all worship Jesus in our own way.” ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/132 "2013-02-08T16:58:44Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Perhaps officially, but I happen to know that one of our local Rotary Clubs used to begin their weekly lunch with a prayer by whatever minister was in the room. I think the organization has a “slant” towards deism on the theory that although we may each worship God by another name, it’s really all the same god. It’s hard for some people to believe that atheism exists if they’ve never been confronted with it. The Kiwanis, Lions, Elks, and Freemansons among others have the same non-sectarian spiritual component. If Rotary does too, then truly secular service and fraternal organizations at the national or international level seem to be lacking. Even the [Girl Scouts](http://www.girlscouts.org/gs_central/mpmf/faqs.asp) say that: > [@](#): > > While we are a secular organization that refrains from teaching religious or spiritual beliefs or practices, we believe that the motivating force in Girl Scouting is a spiritual one, and we greatly value our longstanding partnerships with religious organizations across many faiths that share the values of the Girl Scout Promise and Law. I’ll keep searching, though. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/133 "2013-02-08T17:25:37Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > How about “If you don’t know what goes on someplace, you ask, instead of asserting your ignorant prejudices as fact”? Isn’t that what I just did? I asked. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/134 "2013-02-08T17:39:24Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Isn’t that what I just did? I asked. I took your asking “Bibles or Torahs?” as asserting that there were no Bibles in synagogues. Maybe I barked too quickly at you. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/135 "2013-02-08T17:40:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Aren’t the Unitarian Universalists pretty close to that? UU is a church for people who don’t do church (atheists included) but can’t seem to break themselves of the need to congregate on nominally spiritual grounds. Think of it as religious methadone. Frankly, only a religious believer unable to comprehend the nature of atheism could suggest something so self-cancelling as an “atheist church.” It’s like proposing a big stadium without a playing field so people who don’t follow sports would have somewhere to go. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/136 "2013-02-08T17:43:51Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > In Reformed Synagogues, the text is Hebrew and English, en face. In Orthodox synagogues, pure Hebrew. There are plenty of books for congregants to follow the service. > > How about “If you don’t know what goes on someplace, you ask, instead of asserting your ignorant prejudices as fact”? In our Conservative congregation it is English and Hebrew as well. Copies enough for everyone and enough prayerbooks. Ours also includes the Haftarah readings. (Selected readings from the Prophets that thematically go with the week’s Torah portion.) Commentaries on the text from the great scholars are also included. My favorite though was the Reform one, [W. Gunther Plaut’s “The Torah: A Modern Commentary”](http://books.google.com/books?id=wCTfI2rpvXEC) – the supplemental readings are fascinating. That’s a Google Books link and you can explore the text some to get a feel of what these books are like. The scroll itself is a sacred object stored in the ark, taken out with great hoopla; the text it contains is something that we are supposed to study, attempt to understand, and debate about. Okay, argue. > [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > QFT. > > If there’s any single thing that this thread should have made clear, it’s that atheists aren’t organized and don’t even share common beliefs, except their lack of belief in a God or gods. > > Further, there’s no need, as **pchaos** implies, for an organized place of non-worship to even exist. Some atheists however do share common beliefs and recognize the functions (social, intellectual, and, dare I say, spiritual) that congregations serve other than worship of a greater power. Some may want to be part of a group of others who are like minded and benefit from those aspects, without having to participate in the mouthing of things that they do not believe. Is that a “need”? No. But some do still want it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/137 "2013-02-08T17:48:46Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > So I thought the parading and reading of the Torah to be a big occasion during service, that ‘meh, I’ll read my own one, thank you.’ would kind of detract from the experience. Here is how it worked in my Conservative temple. You parade the Torah around only once a year. It usually goes from the ark to a stand on the stage, where people are called up for blessings before reading it. There is a reading from the Torah, then also a reading from the rest of the Bible. We did both in Hebrew, but I know Reform does it in English. You read through the entire Bible in the course of a year, so much of the time the reading is far from interesting. However the vast majority of the service is not Bible reading but prayer and songs, and there is a prayer book, a Siddur, which is what is in the pews. You get your own copy when you get bar mitzvahed. That does have English on one side and Hebrew on another. I don’t think my temple had copies of Bibles in the pews, they did have prayerbooks for those who didn’t have their own. If you spend your time reading the Bible there you are missing the good stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/138 "2013-02-08T17:53:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Reminds me of a caller I heard on the Larry King radio show many years ago: “I don’t know why the Hindus, Muslms, Christians and Jews can’t just get along-we all worship Jesus in our own way.” Sadly – if you broaden the definition of “Jesus” quite a bit – that’s a mainstream Christian opinion I often run across. Reminds me of the [Coexist](http://www.imao.us/index.php/2013/02/the-coexist-bumper-sticker-explained/) bumper sticker. While it’s a stretch to include “gay rights” and “pacifist” in that list of religions, where is the symbol for Atheism? Or is it omitted _because_ it’s not a religion, which implies tolerance only _for_ religion, not a lack of it. Or maybe I’m reading too much into a mere bumper sticker. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/139 "2013-02-08T17:58:54Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Sadly – if you broaden the definition of “Jesus” quite a bit – that’s a mainstream Christian opinion I often run across. > > Reminds me of the [Coexist](http://www.imao.us/index.php/2013/02/the-coexist-bumper-sticker-explained/) bumper sticker. While it’s a stretch to include “gay rights” and “pacifist” in that list of religions, where is the symbol for Atheism? Or is it omitted _because_ it’s not a religion, which implies tolerance only _for_ religion, not a lack of it. Or maybe I’m reading too much into a mere bumper sticker. I don’t think there is a recognizable symbol for atheism, just a handful of sad attempts that’ve never caught on. So, that’s probably part of it. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/140 "2013-02-08T18:06:21Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I don’t think there is a recognizable symbol for atheism, just a handful of sad attempts that’ve never caught on. So, that’s probably part of it. Damn anarchists got the good “A” one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=8)