# Atheist Churches, Good or Bad Idea. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579 "2013-02-07T12:10:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/161 "2013-02-08T19:18:14Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > That reminds you of Startrek? It looks like a generic atomic symbol to me. And I don’t like it much, either. I don’t see the connection. > > Maybe the Atheist symbol should be a big void. **How can you have a symbol of nothing?** > > Should we ask Jerry Seinfeld? Is nothing sacred? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/162 "2013-02-08T19:18:52Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Here’s a collection of possible Atheist Church logos. Pick one: > > [http://signsanddisplays.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/atheist-symbol-logo-set.jpg](http://signsanddisplays.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/atheist-symbol-logo-set.jpg) #1 is tolerable, the others are eye-searing. This is why we didn’t make the cut for the Coexist bumper sticker. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/163 "2013-02-08T19:21:10Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Is nothing sacred? [Indeed.](http://frumheretic.blogspot.com/2008/11/is-nothing-sacred.html) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/164 "2013-02-08T19:23:25Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > #1 is tolerable, the others are eye-searing. This is why we didn’t make the cut for the Coexist bumper sticker. #1 is going symbolize the guy on the Pringle’s can in another 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/165 "2013-02-08T19:28:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > #1 is going symbolize the guy on the Pringle’s can in another 20 years. Now that’s all I can see it as. Damn you, **Czarcasm** , Proctor & Gamble, and Kellogg! ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/166 "2013-02-08T19:37:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Indeed.](http://frumheretic.blogspot.com/2008/11/is-nothing-sacred.html) I can always trust someone here to be familiar with the classics. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/167 "2013-02-08T19:53:24Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Maybe the Atheist symbol should be a big void. How can you have a symbol of nothing? So you’re saying we should be represented by an A hole? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/168 "2013-02-08T20:04:49Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > The implication of **pchaos** ’s posts and OP is that there’s some kind of common core of atheist belief and a “church” would be a useful place to disseminate this belief. > > I don’t deny some atheists desire some kind of fellowship. But that just allows the picture to continue being muddied about the idea of some kind of common “Atheist Church” where the tenets of athetic belief (or non-belief) are expounded. To my read you have misread what **pchaos** has asked and stated. > [@pchaos](#): > > I’ve never gone to one, but I’ll just speculate, they are probably similar to religious churches. Major difference being atheists normally don’t pray. I like the idea of an atheist church. > > But on the other hand…if you aren’t religious then why go to church. A reasonable question. Which he then tries to answer himself in later posts – > [@pchaos](#): > > …The sense of community would be similar. Also, the charitable aspect of it would be similar, there may be a basket passed around for donations. > [@pchaos](#): > > … A major reason for creating any type of institution is to pass the values to the kids and next generation. And the intent behind my contribution with the example of the Secular Humanist Jewish congregations was to illustrate that some with no god concept have indeed formed the Jewish version of churches specifically with those intents in mind. Admittedly it gets a bit murky and fuzzy due to the variable nature of Jewish identity, part religion, part ethno-cultural and tribal … what applies to this minority of all Jews with no God concept\* possibly, maybe even probably, has little applicability to those who were raised in a different religious heritage or who were raised with no religious identity. But for these people being part of that historically religious stream is important and _serves the roles that he posited_: sense of community; a vehicle for social action (from passing the basket to taking on projects together); and a means of passing on values to a next generation. \*Many other Jewish atheists just drop the kids off to religious school, go to Yom Kippur and Rosh HaShanah services and the ones their kids are featured in the service of, have Passover dinner reading the Haggadah, and mouth the words of belief during those services without sweating about it much. They may even participate more and be part of some Adult Ed classes and just coexist among those who do believe. And some are unaffiliated with anything. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/169 "2013-02-08T20:09:40Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Here’s a collection of possible Atheist Church logos. Pick one: > > [http://signsanddisplays.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/atheist-symbol-logo-set.jpg](http://signsanddisplays.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/atheist-symbol-logo-set.jpg) #5 had me thinking [“Klingon”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KlingonInsignia.png). Or possibly “impotent Klingon” since it’s floppier. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/170 "2013-02-08T20:12:54Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > This isn’t even true of all religions, let alone all non-religions. Sorry to disillusion you, but churches are a business. If they don’t continue to get new customers, they’ll eventually go bankrupt. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/171 "2013-02-08T20:36:20Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > In that it looks sciency, sure. I’m not a Star Trek fan. Do you get together with other non-Star Trek fans? Do you have a non-Star Trek fan church? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/172 "2013-02-08T20:39:36Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Do you get together with other non-Star Trek fans? Do you have a non-Star Trek fan church? How else would I pass on the value of not being a Star Trek fan? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/173 "2013-02-08T20:40:07Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Do you get together with other non-Star Trek fans? Do you have a non-Star Trek fan church? Yes, they call it Star Wars. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/174 "2013-02-08T20:51:59Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Maybe the Atheist symbol should be a big void. How can you have a symbol of nothing? Like [this](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/BH_LMC.png)? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/175 "2013-02-08T21:32:05Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > In that it looks sciency, sure. I’m not a Star Trek fan. I just lost all respect for you… heathen. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/176 "2013-02-08T21:37:29Z")
Honestly, I wouldn’t mind too much if Atheist churches gave the wrong impression. If people start to think, “Atheism is kind of a religion, except that they don’t worship any god in particular” that would be a step in the right direction over “atheists are satanists” or “atheists are angry at God”. Still not accurate, but not quite as accusatory. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/177 "2013-02-08T21:47:25Z")
The actual idea is dumb for the reasons everyone else says. It makes even less sense than a church for theists, and at least they mostly have in common that their god(s) and/or goddess(es) share many common characteristics. But general idea has much more value if you deal with the atheist subdivisions, like secular humanism, rationalism, etc. But there still are problems. Sure, getting together under a common belief system makes sense, but calling yourself a church? It has religious implications that may bug both members and non-members, the former because they don’t like religion and the latter because it seems like thumbing your nose at religion. And a pastor? Maybe in his advisory role, but not in his leadership role. Sure, the club will need a leader, but a pastor’s leadership stretches beyond the church itself. He isn’t just giving advice when he preaches–he’s telling you how you should live. That’s too far for pretty much every “sect” of atheism that I can think of. In fact, even having the same guy giving advice all the time is probably a bit too much–better to have guest speakers or model yourself after those pastor-less churches where everyone gets a chance to speak if they want. Finally, worship. Prayer-style worship is obviously out, and I think it would be too odd to be singing songs about how great your particular ideology is. Maybe a single club song that you sing, but not multiple songs about it. But singing together might be okay, although it might work better if only a subset were involved. The choir concept makes more sense I think, and attending that portion of the “service” would be optional. There is good to found in churches that even atheist might like, but I’m not convinced anything more than the current groups and clubs is necessary. If you really need that type of structure, a Unitarian would make more sense, assuming you can stomach the idea of being with theists who all want to get along. ---
**Author:** ![Mrs.Cake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mrs.Cake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs.Cake)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/178 "2013-02-08T21:55:50Z")
We atheists don’t want church so much as we want church socials, with potluck suppers and homemade pie. I think we can all get behind the idea of pie-worship. Solves the question of what we should use as a symbol as well. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/179 "2013-02-08T22:04:41Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > To my read you have misread what **pchaos** has asked and stated. You skipped over this gem: > [@pchaos](#): > > So far, it appears that the overall sentiment is that it’s a bad thing to have atheist churches, but there’s no consensus on what if any institution would replace it. Examples of such institutions are fine, but it’s still apparent to me that **pchaos** is still working under the assumption that every atheist should find and belong to such an institution, rather than having them merely available to those who want them. > [@Mrs.Cake](#): > > We atheists don’t want church so much as we want church socials, with potluck suppers and homemade pie. I think we can all get behind the idea of pie-worship. Solves the question of what we should use as a symbol as well. Brings new meaning to [House of Pies](http://www.houseofpies.com/). Their logo is ok, but I prefer the T-shirts with a basic house outline with the greek pi symbol inside. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579/180 "2013-02-08T22:12:02Z")
Now having read the thread rather than just skimming, I see a lot of you are saying that some atheists do have beliefs in common. Yes, they do. But a church made up of them would not be a Church of Atheism, even if that’s the way some of these organizations like to style themselves. It would be a church of whatever subdivision of atheism is employed. I also note the specter of “atheism is not a religion.” In my opinion, atheism is a religion, but it’s a very disorganized one. It’s as much and as little a religion as theism is. I understand some people prefer not to call it a religion, since they think that means more than I think it does. But it can be treated like a religion with many sects. You can’t get away from religion itself because all it means is a shared belief or belief system amongst a group of people. Plus, it’s the only way “freedom of religion” can include atheism. You’re free to be whatever subset of atheism you want to be, just like theists are free to be whatever subset of theism they want to be.’ Otherwise, you get this stupid dichotomy between “freedom of religion” and “freedom from religion” which is really pointless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-churches-good-or-bad-idea/649579.md?page=10)