# Atheist Dopers who've attended AA/NA/OA/&c.: What's your higher power? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318 "2012-05-28T04:02:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/21 "2012-05-28T18:47:43Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > But looking at the 12 steps you can easily erase God from it and take responsibility for yourself. > > Don’t ask God to take away shortcommings, but look at your shortcommings and say “Is this the man I want to be?” “No” “Then act how you would like to be”. I may steal that. “May” in the “am totally going to” sense of the word. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/22 "2012-05-28T18:54:59Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > They NEED it?? > > Then the higher power would be their addiction. It’s an eternal battle. Needing something is not the same as being addicted to it. People need food to survive, but most are not addicted to it. If needing a higher power to stop drinking doesn’t have negative consequences, and isn’t disrupting a person’s life, then it’s tool, not an addiction. As for the efficacy of various programs, people need to try what works for them. Willpower works for many people – I don’t have a problem with alcohol because I am capable of controlling my intake on my own. If willpower isn’t working, then it makes sense to try something else. Many people on the SDMB have been helped by 12-step programs. They are one option. Recovery programs like the one **Alan Smithee** describes are another. It’s about what works for each individual. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/23 "2012-05-28T19:27:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there hard evidence that shows that AA _does_ work “very well”? Addiction is hard to study over the short term that doctoral candidates have to work in so there are few studies of AA or any other method. It is said that addicts of all sorts relapse multiple times\* before mastering the demon, but even then they can relax their guard and _poof_ they’re back in the life. It’s especially difficult with alcoholism because it is socially acceptable to drink, all your friends drink, and how much harm can a single beer do? So, basically, the studies I’ve seen seem to follow you for a year and if in that time you fall off the wagon that is counted as a failure, even if you are back at AA (or any program) the following week with a better understanding of your weaknesses and triggers. And I have seen no longterm studies. This is why I want to improve our communication with late teens and twenties. I fear we are driving them away with our concentration on the words of a guy nearly as old as MY grandfather, and I’m nearly as old as theirs. - - Daily Twain quote\*\*: “It’s easy to quit smoking. I’ve done it hundreds of times.” \*\* - When I was in Dale Carnegie class (another remnant of the '30s) the teacher told us to never start with a Twain quote. How could I resist, especially as I was the first up to give my presentation? I accessed my vast memory bank of Twain quotes, found one that fit my talk perfectly (there’s always at least one), and tacked it on the beginning of my talk. I got a laugh, which is all that really matters ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/24 "2012-05-28T19:44:13Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I’m not an atheist, so I won’t try to answer the OP’s question except to say that I really like what **dropzone** has to say. Who knew I was so deep? I didn’t. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/25 "2012-05-28T19:51:20Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > When I was in Dale Carnegie class (another remnant of the '30s) Heard one of the youngsters quoting [Think and Grow Rich](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_and_Grow_Rich) the other day. Hmmm, Bill W, Dale Carnegie, and Napoleon Hill are still going strong. What is it about the '30s that makes those [old philosophers](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKkazr8M-n4) resonate with people today? There’s a book in there somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![percypercy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@percypercy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/percypercy)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/26 "2012-05-28T19:58:06Z")
My dad is probably agnostic, at the least, but we haven’t ever really gotten into his religious views. My brother and sister and I weren’t baptized, but I believe his older kids, my half-sister and half-brother were. I know my half-brother’s kids were. He’s been in AA for over twenty years. Since I attended an Episcopal school(so did two of my sisters), and he was always okay with our Mom taking us to Holiday services at various churches, I’d assume he had long ago worked out whatever issues he had with God. He’s never said, and I never asked, what he used as his higher power. I think it just wasn’t a big deal for him. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/27 "2012-05-28T20:19:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there hard evidence that shows that AA _does_ work “very well”? [Link.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2746426/) I could have sworn we’ve been over this in different threads. Anyway… From the link: > [@](#): > > What, then, is the scorecard for AA effectiveness in terms of specificity? Among the rigorous experimental studies, there were two positive findings for AA effectiveness, one null finding, and one negative finding. Among those that statistically addressed selection bias, there were two contradictory findings, and two studies that reported significant effects for AA after adjusting for potential confounders such as motivation to change. Readers must judge for themselves whether their interpretation of these results, on balance, supports a recommendation that there is no experimental evidence of AA effectiveness (as put forward by the Cochrane review). As for the scorecard for the other criteria, the evidence for AA effectiveness is quite strong: Rates of abstinence are about twice as high among those who attend AA (criteria 1, magnitude); higher levels of attendance are related to higher rates of abstinence (criteria 2, dose-response); these relationships are found for different samples and follow-up periods (criteria 3, consistency); prior AA attendance is predictive of subsequent abstinence (criteria 4, temporal); and mechanisms of action predicted by theories of behavior change are evident at AA meetings and through the AA steps and fellowship (criteria 6, plausibility). There are other studies out there, which I have posted links to in other threads on this subject, which conclude that the most effective treatment is A.A. and therapy combined. Note, the linked study was looking specifically at specificity (now that is a tongue twister..) The abstract states: > [@](#): > > The goal of this paper is to provide a focused review of the literature on AA effectiveness that will allow readers to judge the evidence for AA effectiveness themselves. The review organizes the research on AA effectiveness according to six criterion required for establishing causation: (1) magnitude of effect; (2) dose response effect; (3) consistent effect; (4) temporally accurate effects; (5) specific effects; (6) plausibility. The evidence for criteria 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6 is very strong: Rates of abstinence are about twice as high among those who attend AA (criteria 1, magnitude); higher levels of attendance are related to higher rates of abstinence (criteria 2, dose-response); these relationships are found for different samples and follow-up periods (criteria 3, consistency); prior AA attendance is predictive of subsequent abstinence (criteria 4, temporal); and mechanisms of action predicted by theories of behavior change are present in AA (criteria 6, plausibility). However, rigorous experimental evidence establishing the specificity of an effect for AA or Twelve Step Facilitation/TSF (criteria 5) is mixed, with 2 trials finding a positive effect for AA, 1 trial finding a negative effect for AA, and 1 trial finding a null effect. Studies addressing specificity using statistical approaches have had two contradictory findings, and two that reported significant effects for AA after adjusting for potential confounders such as motivation to change. As far as the OP goes, the higher power thing freaks a lot of people out (especially on this board). When I first attended meetings my father asked me about it. I said I was still an atheist/agnostic. My Dad, a very smart man, then said 'But you have to believe, the program says so…" which led to an interesting discussion. FWIW, my higher power is biology. My body doesn’t react well to alcohol. That is just the way it is. When I drink all kinds of odd things happen, especially to my thinking. A.A. has a method that allows me to adjust my thinking so that the desire to drink isn’t there anymore. Plus I meet some good people and always know where to find a free cup of coffee. Slee ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/28 "2012-05-28T20:31:46Z")
Shit, my club charges a quarter, but it’s good coffee. TMI: I learned how to tell that I have been to too many meetings in one day: my urine smells like coffee. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/29 "2012-05-28T20:55:07Z")
I tend to use the old “Group Of Drunks” or “Good Orderly Direction” HP (as have been mentioned above), along with an occasional thought about the ultimate universal (or multiversal) mind, as it suits me. It’s kept me sober for over 21 years now, after over 6 years of trying every other way I could find to get sober, and failing miserably. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/30 "2012-05-29T03:51:52Z")
I really need to stop going to Beginner Step meetings. Tonight’s was about Step Three and was spiced up by a young oldtimer I didn’t know who likened people who use the group as our higher power to vampires sucking on the the energy of the ones who are truly following the program. He was surprisingly hostile and he hadn’t even met me yet. This is cleaned up a bit. The original was written on the fly while I listened to others. I write down my thoughts because I cannot remember them when it’s my turn to speak. > [@](#): > > Hi, I’m **drop** , a disagreeable and argumentative alcoholic who should probably keep his mouth shut, but … > > How do you turn your life and problems over to God if you don’t believe in him? My higher power is the group, but I don’t suppose any of you want to talk to my creditors. It’s okay; neither does Jesus. I asked. > > Bill W. saw this problem so in his chapter on Step Two he simplified the solution so all the atheists and agnostics either saw the light or died wretched drunks. He says that you cannot make anything of the program without the help of your Higher Power, but that doesn’t need to be. We all have inner strength to draw on, strength we don’t always know about. We can do the succeeding steps without the help of a supernatural power through our own efforts and the support of this group of kindred spirits, people who have had problems similar to our own. > > I often feel I don’t belong here, that I don’t and will never fit in with the program and I should probably quit. Then I remember what I get out of it despite myself and Bill W, so you aren’t getting rid of me that easily. Thanks to this fellowship, and sucking out your life force like a vampire when we hold hands to say The Lord’s Prayer, I’ll keep coming, stay sober, and continue to argue with a dead man. In my defense, that other guy started it. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/31 "2012-05-29T12:28:35Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > In my defense, that other guy started it. Sounds like a perfectly justifiable resentment to me. 😉 Even if you’re on the right track , if you sit still the train will run you over. ---
**Author:** ![3\_20\_59\_or\_bust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/47e85d/32.png) [@3\_20\_59\_or\_bust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3_20_59_or_bust)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/32 "2012-05-29T15:50:51Z")
Lucky. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/33 "2012-05-29T17:51:27Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Even if you’re on the right track , if you sit still the train will run you over. Oh God! Another slogan! I have had it up to HERE with AA’s slogans! 😛 It’s cool, Doc. I’m just going to fake it 'til I make it. Which is one I’ve never heard anyone in this group use. For some crazy reason they value _honesty,_ and you’ve seen what happens when I get honest. I’m going back to passing when it’s my turn to talk and let my fake sponsor fake sponsor someone else. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/34 "2012-05-29T18:41:33Z")
Might I suggest you look for meetings held in Unitarian churches? That’s where I’ve tended to find groups where the more agnostic/atheistic/just keep one’s mouth shut about the specifics of one’s religious beliefs members tend to congregate. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/35 "2012-05-29T19:33:56Z")
I am neither an atheist nor have I ever attended an AA meeting, I do have family that is currently going through it so I’d like to take a stab at it. From a Christian perspective, someone who is enough of an alcoholic to the point that it’s destroying his life, he’s essentially made alcohol the master of his life and it’s what is dictating his choices. Thus, realizing that his life is out of control, he needs to turn his life over to God, he was trying to handle it himself and failed. I think we can look at the role that God fills as a point of purity in cause in relation to addiction, where the cause and motivation of behavior comes to getting the next fix of the addiction. Even for an atheist, to fall into addiciton, you’ve lost control of your life to the addiction. So where a theist may say that they no longer want their choices motivated by getting the next fix but by serving God, an atheist can choose another motivation that they see as pure. So, if you can choose a pure motivation for your behaviors, what would it be? Maybe an appeal to pure logic and rationality. Perhaps an appeal to love for your family and friends. Maybe you need to embody it somehow, so imagining how you’d really like to be or someone you really admire as a goal. What is it that motivates you or, maybe more precisely, what is it that you’d like to motivate you? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/36 "2012-05-29T19:45:38Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Might I suggest you look for meetings held in Unitarian churches? That’s where I’ve tended to find groups where the more agnostic/atheistic/just keep one’s mouth shut about the specifics of one’s religious beliefs members tend to congregate. Nah, I like these people and see a need to guide them on the path of righteousness as I see it. As a liberal one of my core beliefs is that, if someone disagrees with me, I haven’t talked enough. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/37 "2012-05-29T20:03:12Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > …an atheist can choose another motivation that they see as pure. > > So, if you can choose a pure motivation for your behaviors, what would it be? Pure motives? That’s deeper than I care to get, especially since I have no motives that are entirely pure, but it will appeal to the religious people so I may steal it. Back to the OP. **BomTek** , have you made it to an EA meeting yet? I always figured EA was for people with anger management issues, not the psychologically fragile, and I want to learn more from someone who is experiencing it for the first time. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/38 "2012-05-30T05:40:20Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Might I suggest you look for meetings held in Unitarian churches? That’s where I’ve tended to find groups where the more agnostic/atheistic/just keep one’s mouth shut about the specifics of one’s religious beliefs members tend to congregate. Wait a second, are you suggesting I closet myself because of my lack of belief? Does AA need an Atheist Liberation riot in which we grab cups of coffee, sit down, and request the same respect for our beliefs that my primarily Catholic group extends to Muslims and (yuck!) Protestants? :dubious: I’m disagreeing with you enough I should just ask you to be my online sponsor. You have all of the qualifications my fake sponsor lacks: You have 21 years in the program, she has a week less than me and I’m at 80 days. You are a he, she ain’t. I don’t know if you are cute but I know you’re not my style, she’s cute and one thing I know is that one shouldn’t find ones sponsor cute. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/39 "2012-05-30T06:42:57Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > How about if you picture the ‘higher power’ as how you yourself would like to be. > > Someone with hono(u)r, someone who does the right thing, someone who is helpful etc. etc. > > Keep the image of _that_ man as your guiding force, and maybe, maybe you can even actually become him. Brilliant, simple and to the point. Yes honour does have a U ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318/40 "2012-05-30T12:36:37Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Wait a second, are you suggesting I closet myself because of my lack of belief? Not hardly. I share my beliefs freely. But I like at least one regular meeting where my particular beliefs are shared in general with at least a few others, and where the membership tends to not mix AA big book and bible constantly. > [@](#): > > I’m disagreeing with you enough I should just ask you to be my online sponsor. You have all of the qualifications my fake sponsor lacks: You have 21 years in the program, she has a week less than me and I’m at 80 days. You are a he, she ain’t. I don’t know if you are cute but I know you’re not my style, she’s cute and one thing I know is that one shouldn’t find ones sponsor cute. As far as sponsors go, I think one’s sponsor needs at least 1 year of quality sobriety under their belt. Can some be good sponsors with less time? Yes, but I think the risks go up. My mother said I was cute. At one point in my life… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-dopers-whove-attended-aa-na-oa-c-whats-your-higher-power/623318.md?page=3)