# Atheist Muslims **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 9, 2002, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056 "2002-05-09T11:25:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/21 "2002-05-10T02:46:58Z")
There was a Bosnian joke going around, that went something like, “How do you tell a Bosnian Serb, a Bosnian Croat, and a Bosniak apart? Answer…The Serb doesn’t go to church, the Croat doesn’t go to mass, and the Bosniak doesn’t go to the mosque.” It’s like what Collunsbury said…if you go to a more Westernized Muslim country, especially one of the former Communist Muslim countries…Bosnia, Albania, Azerbaijan, atheism isn’t going to be that big a deal…If you go to someplace like Saudia Arabia, or Iran, where Islam is officially part of the state, atheism is going to be a bigger deal. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/22 "2002-05-10T11:41:54Z")
> [@](#): > > **Opus1** Here’s an experiment. Go out on a public street corner in the following ten countries and loudly proclaim in the vernacular that you are an atheist and that Muhammad and Jesus are both homosexual perverts That isn’t being an atheist, that’s being an offensive asshole. > [@](#): > > **clairobscur** I’ve to disagree with iskara. Muslim societies can be tolerant with other religions (at least christianism and judaism), and may tend to be hospitable and generous, but atheism is another matter entirely. The concept itself seems totally alien to most people. Stating that you’re christian isn’t an issue, but if you were to state there’s no god, you’ll face bewildered and puzzled looks (and IME, immediate attempts to convert you, with various “proofs” presented). Bollocks. There is no pressure to convert non-Muslims. The only time I’ve had people witness to me they’ve been Christians. I have found Muslims here - from different nationalities and backgrounds - generally interested and curious about other faiths. Never openly judgmental. > [@](#): > > **clairobscur** It’s a topic I would personnally avoid. I don’t know what would happen if you were to climb on a soapbox and try to “convert” people to atheism, but I would guess you would face a strong hostility in most places, and probably could be arrested in several countries. Yes, I’d personally avoid it too. And I would expect to get just as much hostility if I tried to convert people to anything they didn’t believe in, anywhere in the world. The OP is NOT about converting people and soapboxing. It’s about being an atheist in a Muslim world. Which by itself is NOT a problem. Preaching atheism - or anything else - is an entirely different matter. > [@](#): > > **clairobscur** I must admit i don’t know laws in the various muslim countries. But i’m pretty certain :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/23 "2002-05-10T22:46:08Z")
> [@](#): > > That isn’t being an atheist, that’s being an offensive asshole. Your point? Blasphemy is punishable by death in many Islamic countries, whether it’s done nicely or meanly. If you don’t like my experiment, try publishing _The Satanic Verses_ in the following countries. Country-by-country diversity notwithstanding, the claim that predominantly Islamic countries are more tolerant that Westernized, secular states is just ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/24 "2002-05-10T23:02:30Z")
In re: Albania. Albania is majority Muslim by tradition, yet it’s communist government was officially “Athiest” from 1967 to the late 1980’s under Enver Hoxha. After almost 20 years, the majority of the formerly Muslim population was “officially” atheist Of course many chose to identify as such to hide their views from the authorities. Most reasonable interpretations of the Koran allow a Muslim to “hide” his religion if his or her livelyhood is in jeopardy (In 15th century Spain for instance). In Bosnia, the restristions on religion were far less severe (Tito even tried to play up Yugoslavia’s Muslim population among allies in the Arab/Muslim world). But many people did become very secular. In the 1990’s, one of the problems in the Balkan conflicts was the presence of foreign mercenaries of mujahaddin or “Jihadists” from the Muslim world who fought in Bosnia and Kosovo and attempted to spread more fundamentalist views among the secular or atheist Balkan Muslims. Basically, they had a “reconversion” mission. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/25 "2002-05-10T23:17:20Z")
Well, Cuate, that’s my point. Although some Balkan countries, like Bosnia or Albania, have majority Muslim, or traditionally Muslim populations, events in those countries have caused the society to become secular, and large amounts of the population to become secularized or atheist. So if you go to Sarajevo or Tirania and say “Hey, I’m an atheist”, you’ll get a different reception than if you go to Tehran or Riyadh and say that. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/26 "2002-05-10T23:54:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cuate \* > > In the 1990’s, one of the problems in the Balkan conflicts was the presence of foreign mercenaries of mujahaddin or “Jihadists” from the Muslim world who fought in Bosnia and Kosovo and attempted to spread more fundamentalist views among the secular or atheist Balkan Muslims. Basically, they had a “reconversion” mission. Quite true, but I’ll note that the “Jihadists” appear to have failed pretty spectacularly in radicalizing Bosnian Muslims. At least according to Gilles Kepel in his book Jihad:_The Trail of Political Islam_ ( English translation 2002 by Anthony F. Roberts, Belknap Press of Harvard University Press - original edition 2000 as Jihad:_Expansion et Declin de L’Islamisme_. Very interesting volume which I highly recommend as a background source for understanding the history of modern Islamism. Also the French title is slightly more accurate as Kepel has a premise that I’ve been toying with starting a GD on. His contention is that the current spate of radical Islamic terrorism, including the 9-11 disaster ( he revised the English edition to include it ), are merely the last desparate paroxysms of a dieing movement. In his view radical Islamism has failed and more and more Muslims are so judging it. What we are seeing is the destructive thrashing of a fatally wounded philosophy. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2002, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/27 "2002-05-11T00:01:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamerlane \* > \*\ ***yojimbguy** : My apologies for my carelessnes :). > > - Tamerlane \*\* None nececessary. Just trying to avoid any possible identity confusion. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2002, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/28 "2002-05-11T03:00:49Z")
> [@](#): > > * * * > > ## clairobscur I’ve to disagree with iskara. Muslim societies can be tolerant with other religions (at least christianism and judaism), and may tend to be hospitable and generous, but atheism is another matter entirely. The concept itself seems totally alien to most people. Stating that you’re christian isn’t an issue, but if you were to state there’s no god, you’ll face bewildered and puzzled looks (and IME, immediate attempts to convert you, with various “proofs” presented). > > Bollocks. There is no pressure to convert non-Muslims. The only time I’ve had people witness to me they’ve been Christians. I have found Muslims here - from different nationalities and backgrounds - generally interested and curious about other faiths. Never openly judgmental. Fine. So, I must have dreamed these experiences. Probably mere hallucinations. Do you know the adress of a good psychiatrist? I obviously need one. And perhaps you noticed I was refering to “stating there’s no god”. It seems to me atheism was the topic, not curiosity about “other faiths” > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## clairobscur It’s a topic I would personnally avoid. I don’t know what would happen if you were to climb on a soapbox and try to “convert” people to atheism, but I would guess you would face a strong hostility in most places, and probably could be arrested in several countries. > > Yes, I’d personally avoid it too. And I would expect to get just as much hostility if I tried to convert people to anything they didn’t believe in, anywhere in the world. The OP is NOT about converting people and soapboxing. It’s about being an atheist in a Muslim world. Which by itself is NOT a problem. Preaching atheism - or anything else - is an entirely different matter. Being able to publically claim you’re an atheist or not seemed relevant to me. And as for atheism not being a problem…Do you refer to being an expat westerner atheist, or to being a local with a muslim background and becoming atheist? And in which countries? In which social circles? > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## clairobscur I must admit i don’t know laws in the various muslim countries. But i’m pretty certain There’s a wide difference between not knowing the details of the laws in various muslims countries and being absolutely clueless on this topic… I don’t know the details of Netherland’s law about cannabis, but nevertheless know one can smoke it Amsterdam’s cofee shops without hassle. I don’t know the specifics of the laws concerning apostasy in Egypt, but I know several people have been condemned on this basis there. Since you found the rolling eyes smiley appropriate, I assume your own opinion is based on a comprehensive knowledge of the legal system in most of these countries? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2002, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/29 "2002-05-11T05:12:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\* > Well, one more time, as hope springs eternal. > Arab does not equal Muslim. > Muslim does not equal Arab. > Arab society does not equal Islamic society. > \*\* blah blah blah, but you failed to remind yourself that being French does not preclude you from being Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Tamex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Tamex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamex)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2002, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/30 "2002-05-11T11:45:26Z")
Here are [About.com](http://About.com)’s reports on [Religious Liberty Around the World](http://atheism.about.com/library/irf/irf00/bl_irf_countryindex.htm). That should give you a good idea of how non-Muslims are treated in different nations around the world. It does certainly vary. Here is a quote from the report on Iran: > [@](#): > > The Government does not ensure the right of citizens to change or renounce their religious faith. Apostasy, specifically conversion from Islam, can be punishable by death. As my friend said, “Ex-Muslims don’t exist” there. Not ex-Muslim Christians nor ex-Muslim atheists. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2002, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/31 "2002-05-11T23:26:41Z")
\<\< I would very much encourage you to travel to this part of the world, if you haven’t done so recently, as you will probably be as surprised as I was at how welcoming and tolerant the people here are. \>\> I said, it depends on the country. Neither Saudi Arabia nor Indonesia nor Iran nor Iraq nor Syria are “welcoming” of non-Muslims. And I, being Jewish, would not be able to get a visa to travel to many of these countries to see how “welcoming and tolerant” the people are. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/32 "2002-05-12T01:57:42Z")
Dezinformatsya. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven \* > I said, it depends on the country. Neither Saudi Arabia nor Indonesia nor Iran nor Iraq nor Syria are “welcoming” of non-Muslims. And I, being Jewish, would not be able to get a visa to travel to many of these countries to see how “welcoming and tolerant” the people are. Well, Dex, where are you getting this info from, the same narrow minded source as your opinions on press freedoms in the Islamic world? Indonesia is hardly unwelcoming to non-Muslims. There are presently all kinds of stability issues right now, but in general Indonesians and Indonesia are quite welcoming to foreigners. The last year has seen some unusual anti-foriegner outbursts in Jakarta, and inter-communal violence, but the general rule has been a live and let live attitude. Syria there is of course their childish ban on people visiting who’ve been to Israel, but they’re hardly unwelcoming of non-Muslims. There is a hostility to Jews bound up in their idiotic anti-Zionist rhetoric, but not a generalized hostility to non-Muslims. Tedious religious convos are of course the rule, but I never felt any hostility. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/33 "2002-05-12T02:56:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Neither Saudi Arabia nor Indonesia nor Iran nor Iraq nor Syria are “welcoming” of non-Muslims. I never went to Iran and Syria (though I very much would want to) but all people I know who did told me how welcoming and friendly Syrians and Iranians were. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/34 "2002-05-12T03:32:41Z")
There are 2 distinct issues: (a) tolerance to foreigners visiting and (b) tolerance of permanent residents who are not of the majority religion. It is important to not exagerate in either direction as some posters here have a habit of doing. My experience has been that ex-Saudi, tolerance on (a) is widespread and genuine. Tolerance on point (b) is a rather more complicated issue. My impression on a personal basis --and to be frank I don’t know how to judge this on objective grounds-- is as follows: The least operationally tolerant areas of the Islamic World in re minority religions are **presently** – it is easy to slip into a particularly pernicious form of ahistoricism-- in the mashreq, that is the old cradle of Islam, Saudi Arabia and its immediate neighbors. Now, it is my judgement that some critiques are exagerated, e.g. in re Egypt and the Copts, where there are issues of discrimination but the overseas community does blow them out of proportion. Non-Muslims are indeed excluded from some (often significant) government functions. Oddly this has played to their favor, economically speaking, but such are unintended consequences. Throughout the mashreq I think we have more or less the same thing. Oddly in Leb-land you get rather the opposite, the Maronite Xtians are some of the most insufferable bastards you will ever encounter --I refer to the elite here, and all caveats apply to the gross generalization. Bloody intolerate hypocrites in general. However, in large part I find a large measure of “operational tolerance” which I believe derived from the Quran’s explicit injunctions in re validity (if _ **inferior** _ validity – ah well religion) of other religions (of the book), which lays an theological-ideological basis for basic level of tolerance. More so than I’ve heard from certain Xtian Middle Americans in re other religions. This, however, is conditional. And limited --the conversion spiel is obligatory, although often rote as I rarely have encountered the ‘high pressure’ sale which evangelical Xtians have put on me far more often-- to the idea Islam is best. But then, who doesn’t think their POV is best. As I noted, outside of the Mashreq, in North Africa and the Balkan/Anatolian region one rather frequently encounters the ‘cultural’ Muslim who rarely if ever prays and rather ressembles the way ‘diests’ in 18-19 and even 20th century America skirted the belief issue. My sense, based on personal experience which while wide ranging I confess limited to certain social classes, is that there is more tolerance for… less orthodox approaches to belief the farther one gets from Mecca. Now, Wahhabite influenced groups throughout the Muslim world have been trying to change that. It would be dangerous to overgeneralize (or mistake the Arab world as the benchmark). E.g. while Indonesia has recently suffered anti-non-Muslim violence, everything informed sources say indicate that most of this is coming from a narrow set of radicals trying their damndest to introduce a new, and nasty, set of ideas. Economic downturn and political upheaval have tilled the soil for them, but it is far from clear if the long-range prospects are good. For someone to imply that Indonesia is in anyway comparable to Saudi is just bleedingly ignorant and/or prejudiced. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/35 "2002-05-12T07:13:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven \* > \*\*\<\< I would very much encourage you to travel to this part of the world, if you haven’t done so recently, as you will probably be as surprised as I was at how welcoming and tolerant the people here are. \>\> > > I said, it depends on the country. Neither Saudi Arabia nor Indonesia nor Iran nor Iraq nor Syria are “welcoming” of non-Muslims. And I, being Jewish, would not be able to get a visa to travel to many of these countries to see how “welcoming and tolerant” the people are. \*\* It depends how you define welcoming. Even in Saudi, as a well-behaved businessman or tourist they would be perfectly polite and tolerant towards you. Not everything in the country may be open to you or possible to you, but colleagues of mine that have travelled there - of varying religions - have suffered no “unwelcoming” behaviour. Indonesia has a strong tourism industry so obviously is not unwelcoming to visitors. Thousands of Australians of all ethnicities and religions flock there every year, as well as visitors from elswhere. Syria also encourages tourists from the West. Business and leisure visitors are both welcome in Iran (being made to respect the current Islamic laws of covering a woman’s head in public does not make a country intolerant of other religions. It doesn’t interfere with your christianity/hinduism/atheism whatever to have to wear a headscarf, it’s just irritating). I have never heard any evidence - anecdotal or otherwise - to suggest that Iraq is intolerant or unwelcoming of non-Muslim visitors. Paranoid about western visitors, fair enough. Besides which, its major enemies in the last two decades have been other Islamic nations, and now the US (but not as a religious thing, as an anti-western thing, quite different). Just to cite you other countries that are perfectly welcoming of overseas non-Muslim visitors: Egypt, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, Sudan, Malaysia, Tunisia. I accept that being Jewish is an issue in some of the these countries, particularly with the current regional tensions. But that is a special case, and not reflective of that particular country’s general tolerance towards non-Muslim religions or atheists. In fact - by your reckoning - they’d be more tolerant of an atheist than a Jew. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/36 "2002-05-12T07:24:45Z")
> [@](#): > > How are natives of Islamic countries who happen to be atheists treated? I would imagine that they lead a pretty hard life. Well, in countries like Egypt, Indonesia, Pakistan, etc… they don’t suffer much. After all in plenty of Islamic majority countries you aren’t forced to go pray. You can do what you want. ---
**Author:** ![dqa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dqa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dqa)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/37 "2002-05-12T14:03:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > **There is no pressure to convert non-Muslims. The only time I’ve had people witness to me they’ve been Christians.** The BBC’s Kate Clark had [this](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/from_our_own_correspondent/newsid_1508000/1508120.stm) to say about a trip to Yemen\*\* > [@](#): > > It’s a hot, sweaty, mosquito-ridden evening and I’m experiencing the heaviest proselytising of my life. > > I feel I now know how people could succumb to brain washing.\*\* Admittedly, this is at a missionary school, but she reports similar interest in her conversion in Palestine, in spite of the accepted Christian minority there. In line with what **Collounsbury** said, she notes that the situation is much more accepting of non-Muslims in Taleban-controlled Afhganistan — so long as the non-Muslims don’t try to preach _their_ faith. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/38 "2002-05-12T14:30:00Z")
\<\< I accept that being Jewish is an issue in some of the these countries, particularly with the current regional tensions. But that is a special case \>\> Oh, yeah, I forgot… Excluding Jews is OK. I repeat, I consider that a country that won’t allow me to visit is not one that I call welcoming. They may allow YOU to visit, and you may think they’re the greatest people of all time. [sarcasm] Once upon a time, way back in the 60s, there was a restaurant in our town that wouldn’t serve blacks. They welcomed me, of course, and I told my black friends how the restaurant owners and staff were such nice, friendly, welcoming, and tolerant people. Blacks were just a “special case.” [/sarcasm] Bah. And I refine my earlier statement: Few (none?) of the Arabic Islamic states have a free press. Happy, Collounsbury? ---
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/39 "2002-05-12T15:16:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, yeah, I forgot… Excluding Jews is OK. > > I repeat, I consider that a country that won’t allow me to visit is not one that I call welcoming. They may allow YOU to visit, and you may think they’re the greatest people of all time. Please single the countries that you are talking about, please cite what countries don’t allow Jewish people to visit. Is it an offical rule in that country, or are you guessing that the guards there won’t let Jewish people in? Does an USA visa/passport require you identify your religion? Does that visiting country require you to identfy your religion? (a lot of non-secular countries do) Also please name a recent case when somebody was denied enterance to that country for the sole reason that they are Jewish. Don’t give examples of Israeli citizens, some countries have fought wars against Israel and currently have bad or no ties with the country. So denying an Israeli enterance could be understandable, it depends on the case. ---
**Author:** ![JS\_Princeton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JS\_Princeton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JS_Princeton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056/40 "2002-05-12T18:50:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven \* > > I said, it depends on the country. Neither Saudi Arabia nor Indonesia nor Iran nor Iraq nor Syria are “welcoming” of non-Muslims. And I, being Jewish, would not be able to get a visa to travel to many of these countries to see how “welcoming and tolerant” the people are. \*\* CK, CK, CK… please either do some research or qualify your statements before making half-truth blanket statements as these. As someone who has been to both Saudi Arabia and Iraq in recent years with friends who have been to Iran and Syria and none of us being Islamic (one of whom was Jewish), I can tell you that they are very “welcoming” (yes even Jews… there is only a question of political affiliation-\> ie whether you’ve been to Israel or not, but none of these countries actively discriminates against people solely because of their cultural or religious heritage.). There is a prevailing stereotype of intolerance on the part of the people of these countries that just isn’t true. True the policies of said countries governments may be a bit offensive to non-Muslims, but that can be said for many countries with predominant religious political groups (including the US, as the late Madalyn Murray O’Hair was fond of attesting to). It is very poor taste to generalize about an entire country’s attitude. In fact, the government of Iraq is really pretty secular and not all that caught up in Islamic hegemony. I’m not saying that there isn’t religious language that is couched by the government, only that it’s about the same caliber as the US government’s employment of Christian religious imagery. Furthermore, my favorite Iranian film, The Color of Paradise, has a main character who admits to being an atheist. Admittedly the message is not extolling the virtues of such a philosophy, but the censors certainly didn’t find it objectionable to represent someone on the film as having such beliefs. There is a difference between going somewhere and proselytizing and going somewhere to visit. I would have to say that if you are doing the latter, you’ll find all of these countries more welcoming than you can imagine. If you are doing the former, you may run into some difficulties just as you would in the United States if you immigrated from Saudi Arabia today and tried to preach radical Islamic Fundamentalism even if it was on the nonviolent side (don’t tell me that the government wouldn’t be investigating you). In any case, I hope that some attempt at balance can be made in an effective discussion of this POV issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheist-muslims/108056.md?page=1)