# Atheists and Hell **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059 "2005-12-04T18:29:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/21 "2005-12-05T14:39:04Z")
> [@George Kaplin](#): > > Speaking as an atheist, I’m able to live quite a comfortable life devoid of a deity because I’m convinced that there isn’t one. If, come judgement day, it turns out I was wrong, I can imagine feeling pretty despondent over being kept out of heaven. There’s no doubt in my mind that hell, even the more sophisticated conception of hell held by modern theologians, would still suck, even for an atheist. Meh. If hell really is the absence of god, that’s fine with me. I’m not interested in worshipping god, were he to exist, because if he does exist, he an asshole. Ergo, if I found out god did exist, I’d be pretty happy about being away from him. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/22 "2005-12-05T14:48:16Z")
The Bible only speaks of anihilation, not eternal suffering. I have no problem with anihilation and I think I would acually prefer that to eternal life. The “alienation” argument is really no more ethically excusable on God’s part than the old lake of fire, especially if he isn’t willing to prove his own existence to humans before they die. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/23 "2005-12-05T14:49:21Z")
Annihilation. Two 'n’s. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/24 "2005-12-05T15:07:29Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The Bible only speaks of anihilation, not eternal suffering. I have no problem with anihilation and I think I would acually prefer that to eternal life. The “alienation” argument is really no more ethically excusable on God’s part than the old lake of fire, especially if he isn’t willing to prove his own existence to humans before they die. However, assuming that annihilation will be the ultimate end of the condemned, the Bible (NT) does speak of aionian punishment (or pruning or correction) in Matthew 25, and the “touchstone-ordeal” (KJV- torment) for aions of aions, before the final cessation of existence. I believe in some sort of Final Opportunity in the Afterlife/Resurrection- whether it be as envisioned by Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, Herbert W. Armstrong or C.S. Lewis (there’s a mixed bag!)- in which Yahweh & JC fully reveal themselves to each person; I have little problem believing that some persons will sooner spit in His face than admit they were wrong. Oh well. Both Testaments are clear- all souls will eventually realize & acknowledge that Yahweh is Lord - to their eternal joy as they go on to Live or their eternal despair as they go on to Die. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/25 "2005-12-05T15:52:23Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I have little problem believing that some persons will sooner spit in His face than admit they were wrong. Oh well. Fallacy of the excluded middle, my friend. If it happens, I will both admit I was wrong (about his existence) **and** spit in his face. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/26 "2005-12-05T16:01:01Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > However, assuming that annihilation will be the ultimate end of the condemned, the Bible (NT) does speak of aionian punishment (or pruning or correction) in Matthew 25, and the “touchstone-ordeal” (KJV- torment) for aions of aions, before the final cessation of existence. The word sometimes translated as “punishment” or “torment” is _kolasin_, which literally means (as you noted) “pruning, cutting off.” Figuratively, it means “check,” “correction,” “chastizement,” or “penalty” but (despite the KJV) it does not carry a connotation of active torment or suffering. Being “pruned” or “cut off” fits just fine with 1st century Jewish eschatological beliefs about annihilation in Gehenna. The only reason to translate _kolasin_ as “torment” in this instance is to support a preconceived idea that conscious torment is the “penalty.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/27 "2005-12-05T16:05:32Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I have little problem believing that some persons will sooner spit in His face than admit they were wrong. Oh well. I wouldn’t be wrong. I still would not have been given any reason to believe before my death. I would have nothing to apologize for. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/28 "2005-12-05T16:13:48Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I wouldn’t be wrong. I still would not have been given any reason to believe before my death. I would have nothing to apologize for. And after all, what’s eternal bliss and communion with the Infinite, compared to the satisfaction of being _right_? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/29 "2005-12-05T16:56:13Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I have little problem believing that some persons will sooner spit in His face than admit they were wrong. Oh well. No, that would be both rude and _inelegant_. I would merely beg Him to stop deceiving me and tell the truth about his technological mastery. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/30 "2005-12-05T17:17:19Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > And after all, what’s eternal bliss and communion with the Infinite, compared to the satisfaction of being _right_? 😃 I find it humorous that you think you’ve gotten one over on him, when of course being right is more important than eternal bliss (you can get that chemically today, so why haven’t you?) or communion with some thing that deserves your contempt. (Or mine, anyway.) –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/31 "2005-12-05T17:28:03Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I have no problem with anihilation and I think I would acually prefer that to eternal life. You would prefer annihilation to _any_ possible eternal life? Is the only thing that makes the life you’re now living bearable the thought that it will end? Poor fellow! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/32 "2005-12-05T17:31:38Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > You would prefer annihilation to _any_ possible eternal life? Is the only thing that makes the life you’re now living bearable the thought that it will end? Poor fellow! I think eternal _anything_ would have to become unbearable after a while. How many trillions of years can you hang around on a cloud, playing a harp and singinging gospel songs before you get bored out of your skull? For me it would take about ten seconds. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/33 "2005-12-05T17:34:27Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I wouldn’t be wrong. I still would not have been given any reason to believe before my death. I would have nothing to apologize for. Unless… a.) you’ve been given evidence but refuse to admit it to yourself; or b.) you are given evidence before you die, but do not accept it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/34 "2005-12-05T17:49:51Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Wow, Voyager- baggage much? > > Simple honest unbelief probably won’t get one into Eternal Hell- probably just a good talking too by God while the now-converted unbeliever goes :smack: Really? Then why do Christians attempt to convert Jews? I’ve always thought that any god worthy of worship would send all good people, believers or not, to heaven, and send those who believe that he killed billions in a flood or sentenced virtuous pagans to hell to the other place. (“What - do you think I would do that? You must really think I’m a shmuck!”) Alas, I have never found any Biblical justification for this belief, and I am not one for non-sched theologies. Do you have a Biblical cite for this second chance? Couldn’t this be argued against on the faith basis? After all, no faith is required once you are talking to the big guy directly. > [@](#): > > Evidences for God to me- > > The existence of existence; If existence didn’t exist, we wouldn’t be having this convesation, would we? > [@](#): > > the survival & thriving of your own people after millenia of attempts to destroy you all (including attempts by some who profess the same faith I do) ; The lottery winner fallacy. Anyone who comes out as a survivor or winner can consider himself to be blessed by god. And you call this winning? 🙂 > [@](#): > > the survival & thriving of the faith I profess after two millenial of attempts to destroy it. Ditto. But most attempts to destroy Christianity, for the past 1500 years or so, have been internecine. I’m not saying the growth of Christianity was just luck, though. It adapted very well to its environment (founding prophet turning into a godling to challenge the emperor gods, etc.) it made conversion easy (no circumcision, seafood okay) it drove the hearse up to the back door like any good soul insurance salesman does ( if you don’t convert you might go to hell. Want to take the chance?) and it was faced by opposition that was stuck in the ways of the past, and was open to religious diversity. I’m not sure Jesus was a good salesman, but Paul sure was. The best marketers won. Nothing to do with god. If Dopers defined a theology, even religious ones, I bet most atheists would snipe from the sidelines for the cheer intellectual fun of it, but not get too bent out of shape. In the real world we have people saying that to greet customers with “Happy Holidays” is evil, who try to teach religion in science class, and who try to pass laws in line with their faith. Believers play this shell game, converting faith to solid evidence when we’re not looking. No problem so long as believers live their lives according to faith, big problem when they try to limit my freedom because god said so. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/35 "2005-12-05T17:50:52Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Unless… > > a.) you’ve been given evidence but refuse to admit it to yourself; > > or > > b.) you are given evidence before you die, but do not accept it. Note that **any** evidence can be interpreted as having a [non-supernatural](http://www.simulation-argument.com/) explanation, no matter how irrefutable True Believers might consider it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/36 "2005-12-05T17:56:09Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The word sometimes translated as “punishment” or “torment” is _kolasin_, which literally means (as you noted) “pruning, cutting off.” Figuratively, it means “check,” “correction,” “chastizement,” or “penalty” but (despite the KJV) it does not carry a connotation of active torment or suffering. Being “pruned” or “cut off” fits just fine with 1st century Jewish eschatological beliefs about annihilation in Gehenna. The only reason to translate _kolasin_ as “torment” in this instance is to support a preconceived idea that conscious torment is the “penalty.” I don’t know the official belief, but when I went to Yom Kippur services, and atoned for a long list of sins and a catchall for any not listed, the reward was being written in the book of life for the next year, not either escape from torment or entry to heaven. Being alive was plenty of reward. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/37 "2005-12-05T17:58:09Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > No, that would be both rude and _inelegant_. I would merely beg Him to stop deceiving me and tell the truth about his technological mastery. I’d say, God, you got some ‘splainin’ to do. Actually, it reminds me of the Russians not telling about the Doomsday Machine in Dr. Strangelove. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/38 "2005-12-05T18:01:14Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Unless… > > a.) you’ve been given evidence but refuse to admit it to yourself; > > or > > b.) you are given evidence before you die, but do not accept it. I’m still waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/39 "2005-12-05T18:18:41Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I think eternal _anything_ would have to become unbearable after a while. How many trillions of years can you hang around on a cloud, playing a harp and singinging gospel songs before you get bored out of your skull? For me it would take about ten seconds. If you think of eternity as a really really really long time, yeah. But I think eternity is being outside time altogether. And I can’t really imagine _what_ that’s like. ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059/40 "2005-12-05T19:02:49Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > So if you’ve made a mistake, you don’t want to know about it? Or are you saying that you would prefer not to go to heaven if it turns out that there is an afterlife? Sorry, I’m just finding your POV a little hard to wrap my mind around (I’m a theist, but I can understand the atheist position at least). To me, it’s most important to know that you’ve made a mistake when you have the opportunity to do things correctly in the future. If you can only know you were wrong once it’s too late to ever do things right, I could see how someone would rather not know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-hell/334059.md?page=3)