# Atheists and Life's Foxholes **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 18, 2021, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234 "2021-02-18T15:42:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/41 "2021-02-18T22:33:50Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I much prefer a godless universe. Yes. It’s much more humane. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/42 "2021-02-18T22:42:10Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > But you do need to go the extra step and let yourself off the hook. No supernatural beings are out there to help you, _and_ they are also not out there judging you. That’s you judging you. Let it go. This is definitely the hardest mental shift. Intellectually you can say to yourself “the whole idea of a deity is irrational and contradicts itself” but if you grew up religious your internal moral compass is programmed to scream at you when you even think certain “heretical” thoughts, for lack of a better term. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/43 "2021-02-18T22:43:19Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Yes. It’s much more humane. You can say that again. My stepmom just finished up with a truly awful year plagued by health crises. As a devout Catholic, she wastes hours of her life agonizing over what it was she did to “deserve” such treatment from her god. I wish I could help her to understand that life is just a crap shoot. No “deserve” is involved. She is tormented by her perceived “failures” and it is painful to watch. Although sometimes she prefers to believe she has been singled out for especially harsh treatment because she is better able to withstand it due to her faith. IOW, she’s better than the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/44 "2021-02-18T22:52:59Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m pretty sure the “atheists in foxholes” thing is actually a claim that atheists are _lying_ - that everybody actually believes in god because it’s built into humanity to do so, and atheists are merely _pretending_ not to believe out of spite or something. I agree with @gdave and would add that some of the self-proclaimed atheists are “born again” after it and others go back to being atheists. Then there was W.C. Fields. > Fields was also known for his personal disdain of religion. He said he had an aversion to Christianity because of the hypocrisy he saw in Christians. However, censors prevented him from working religious humor into his films. > > Fields died in 1946 much as he lived. It is reported that he was caught on his deathbed reading a Bible. When asked about this, he responded, “I’m looking for a loophole.” [Source](https://www.houmatoday.com/article/DA/20041223/Entertainment/608099781/HC) ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/45 "2021-02-18T23:00:34Z")
This too shall pass. ---
**Author:** ![TwoCarrotSnowman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twocarrotsnowman/32/15879_2.png) [@TwoCarrotSnowman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwoCarrotSnowman)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/46 "2021-02-18T23:06:06Z")
There’s an excellent Terry Pratchett quote from _Men at Arms_: > …when you hit your thumb with an eight-pound hammer it’s nice to be able to blaspheme. It takes a very special and strong-minded kind of atheist to jump up and down with their hand clasped under their other armpit and shout, “Oh, random-fluctuations-in-the-space-time-continuum!” or "Aaargh, primitive-and-outmoded-concept on a crutch! That’s where I am. I’m a confirmed atheist, but if I drop something on my foot I’m going to shout “oh god!” or “Jesus!” It’s just a cultural thing. It doesn’t mean I believe what I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2021, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/47 "2021-02-18T23:10:54Z")
" \> You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn’t it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. > Marcus Cole, Babylon 5" ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/48 "2021-02-19T02:34:22Z")
Did you feel tears welling up inside you when your mother read “Three little kittens lost their mittens”? Do you still get the sniffles at the movies? Then you already have the spiritual guidance within you. It’s been bottled up and you need to release it. If your answer was No, then you may need the fear of God to control you. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/49 "2021-02-19T04:01:19Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > Unless you grew up in an atheist family, “Deitism” has been hard wired into your brain. Synaptic pathways were formed and they aren’t going anywhere anytime soon. > > So by all means, if you need to exclaim: “Dear lord please help me through this day!” do so. Just think of it as a cathartic exercise. True. Even for people like myself who were raised in secular homes where religion isn’t mentioned still carry a hard wiring for deism. The overall culture is very religious and it seeps into your own mind. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/50 "2021-02-19T04:34:30Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > At any rate, I’m not trying to convince you of the _truth_ of the adage, just that I don’t think you have the same understanding of it that I do. Sure, and normally I would just agree to disagree, but this is a saying that many atheists find offensive, and I think your interpretation might make some people think it is a reasonable thing to say. So here’s why I don’t think it is. Firstly, it doesn’t say anything about people behaving “as if”. The meaning _is_ intended to be that people convert to religion in moments of crisis. So it’s used to imply that atheists are either just pretending, or just want to sin, because deep down _we all know_ God exists. It’s the classic “I know your mind better than you do” argument. Note that if the meaning of the saying was just that people pray in moments of crisis, but may still be atheist, what would be the point of that? The proper response to that would be a shrug of the shoulders. Secondly even if it were just about rituals and not belief, it’s an absolute claim. It’s not saying “some” or “many”. It is literally denying the existence of anyone that doesn’t pray in that moment, which is of course particularly offensive to atheists that have actually lived through such events and not done that. Heck, I have never been in a combat zone but there are times where my life was in danger. I didn’t pray. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/51 "2021-02-19T10:23:32Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > Unless you grew up in an atheist family, “Deitism” has been hard wired into your brain. Synaptic pathways were formed and they aren’t going anywhere anytime soon. Simply untrue. I was raised in a devout family. My parents did everything parents do to raise their children Christian. But I never believed any of the bullshit, even at age five. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/52 "2021-02-19T12:56:39Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > On the other end, when things are going well and have done for a while, and you are feeling grateful, to what or whom are you grateful when you’re an atheist? For me, it’s just to whatever forces contributed to my good luck: my parents mostly, where and when I was born, my otherwise-unimportant but privilege-attracting attributes (tall white male), the lack of disasters in my immediate vicinity, and so on. Even calling it “luck” isn’t accurate, but there is no vocabulary that I can think of that will substitute. I am the beneficiary of a lot of circumstances over which I had no control, and a few over which I did have some influence. So, whatever “grateful” can mean in that context, I am that. I think “grateful” is a perfectly cromulent term. In this context it means deliberately cultivating an awareness of the good in one’s life, and a sense of humility at how much of it actually happened by chance rather than exclusively by one’s own design. ---
**Author:** ![Keith1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6de8d8/32.png) [@Keith1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keith1)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/53 "2021-02-19T13:03:59Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Where do I turn for that spiritual boost now? Pray to me! I will accept payment, just like the alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/54 "2021-02-19T13:51:40Z")
I think that would make you an exception to the rule. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/55 "2021-02-19T14:04:57Z")
I had some very scary situations in Afghanistan and Iraq and it never occurred to me to pray or appeal to a god. In those instances, I remember thinking “we’re in a really bad spot here and we’d better keep our shit together or we are fucked.” I wasn’t raised in a religious tradition though. The one time I wish I was religious is when someone else has endured a great deal of tribulations, I just think that religion has a good vocabulary for I wish you well and empathize with you. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/56 "2021-02-19T14:09:31Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > I think that would make you an exception to the rule. I think some people are more, or less, hard-wired to be religious than others, by nature (rather than just nurture). ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/57 "2021-02-19T14:56:20Z")
> [@TwoCarrotSnowman](#): > > … but if I drop something on my foot I’m going to shout “oh god!” or “Jesus!” It’s just a cultural thing. It doesn’t mean I believe what I’m saying. Here are more examples of things that people say in intense situations, but absolutely no one really means it, no matter what end of the spectrum they’re on: “Holy shit!” and “Fuck me!” ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/58 "2021-02-19T16:28:24Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Sure, and normally I would just agree to disagree, but this is a saying that many atheists find offensive, and I think your interpretation might make some people think it is a reasonable thing to say. > **[There are no atheists in foxholes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes)** > > "There are no atheists in foxholes" is an aphorism used to suggest that times of extreme stress or fear can prompt belief in a higher power. In the context of actual warfare, such a sudden change in belief has been called a foxhole conversion. The logic of the argument is also used to argue for the opposite. > The statement is an aphorism used to argue that people will believe in, or hope for, a higher power in times of fear or stress, such as during war ("in foxholes"). The origin of the quotatio... I never assumed that the atheists in question weren’t sincere about their atheism. For me the larger issue is that people of all stripes often change their tune when the heat is on. The guy who proclaims that abortion is wrong may recant when his teenage daughter comes home pregnant. People who are anti-government interference suddenly want a bailout when their company goes bankrupt. I’ve known a fair number of people who have to reconcile their “gay is wrong” stance when a beloved family member comes out. Etc. Hold a person’s feet to the fire and some will change their tune (but some will not). As new information comes in or new situations present themselves, people change their minds about lots of things. Notice how many people Trump drove away from the GOP, for instance. That doesn’t automatically mean they were wrong all along or are suddenly liars or hypocrites or anything else. Throughout life, we re-evaluate a lot of things. And if it weren’t for subtle nuance and context, couldn’t the SCOTUS take a lot of days off? If I were king, I’d take “under God” out of the money, the pledge, etc. What is this “swear on the Bible” [(or for that matter, the Quran)?](https://psmag.com/news/using-a-quran-to-swear-in-to-congress-a-brief-history-of-oaths-and-texts). What would Pastafarians swear on? Whatever people believe is their biz, but it isn’t supposed to be the government’s. I’m not totally sleepwalking, but this expression got past my radar. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/59 "2021-02-19T16:34:34Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I think some people are more, or less, hard-wired to be religious than others, by nature (rather than just nurture). No doubt true, but I also believe it would be a rare five year old who would be an avowed atheist in a family of true believers. If little kids buy Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, God is real enough to most of them, especially because their parents aren’t pretending about their faith. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2021, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/60 "2021-02-19T17:57:45Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > No doubt true, but I also believe it would be a rare five year old who would be an avowed atheist in a family of true believers. If little kids buy Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, God is real enough to most of them, especially because their parents aren’t pretending about their faith. For the record I’m another exception. Raised mormon in a family of mormons. Of all the children in the family, I’m the only one for whom it never ‘took’ - and it really is a case of it never happening. At no point, even as a child, did I find any of it credible in any way. It was just another story among other stories. > [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > I never assumed that the atheists in question weren’t sincere about their atheism. For me the larger issue is that people of all stripes often change their tune when the heat is on. The guy who proclaims that abortion is wrong may recant when his teenage daughter comes home pregnant. People who are anti-government interference suddenly want a bailout when their company goes bankrupt. I’ve known a fair number of people who have to reconcile their “gay is wrong” stance when a beloved family member comes out. Etc. Hold a person’s feet to the fire and some will change their tune (but some will not). But the claim is that when the shit hits the fan, atheists will turn to _God_. Why would they turn to God? How about “There are no disbelievers in Santa in foxholes.” Or maybe “There are no deliverers in Odin in foxholes”, if you want to stick with characters that allegedly have the power to do something? Nope. The phrase comes from a presumption that God is the (real) entity to turn to for help, and that all atheists believe that too, deep down. The phrase is unavoidably based in that premise, and it is indeed an assertion that atheists aren’t sincere in their beliefs. If you don’t see that it just means that you’re so acclimatized to seeing the christian god as the one to go to for succor that you don’t realize that atheism doesn’t do that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234.md?page=4)