# Atheists and Life's Foxholes **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 18, 2021, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234 "2021-02-18T15:42:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/81 "2021-02-20T02:31:35Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Well, I mean, good for you if that works for you. Some people choose a different path. If a bit of prayer, even to an entity you don’t believe in, helps with stress and focuses thought, I don’t see the harm. It’s not like it’s incompatible with rationally evaluating the alternatives and finding good doctors. Even Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and Muslims can do that. > > I’m not really that invested in Atheism. I just don’t think there’s a God, at least not in the sense(s) most religions mean. I’ve never joined some atheist club or anything like that. I’m not going to feel ashamed if I say a little prayer or feel proud of myself if I don’t. Praying and finding a doctor is exactly the same, functionally, as just finding a doctor - so I’ll skip the prayer, thanks. I wasn’t saying that prayer doesn’t make some people feel better, especially if they were brought up that way. I was saying that it is not in all our natures to call out at desperate times. I think maybe “how can I help” would be more effective than either “I’m praying for you” or the secular version “I’m thinking of you.” However you might actually have to help, so it could be a dangerous thing to say. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/82 "2021-02-20T02:39:21Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > That’s a pithy line. I don’t think it has any actual relationship to reality, though. It was a joke, but if I were in a foxhole I’d devote my time to digging, not praying. And when I had cancer the time I spent on [cancer.org](http://cancer.org) (The American Cancer Society site) was far more valuable than any amount of prayer. I must admit that if there is a gene for spirituality I don’t have it. I think some people who have grown up in religious environments can’t conceive of those with no spirituality. Many people find it painful and difficult to renounce religion. I had no problem at all doing so. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/83 "2021-02-20T02:58:54Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I’m not really that invested in Atheism. That is pretty much the norm. Most atheists spend very little time thinking about not believing in some superbeing or another. Atheism lacks ritual or sacrament. We just live right along, dealing with what situations arise, not even thinking about invisible magic friends not being all around us or whether we are spiritually fit for – whatever. > [@begbert2](#): > > My question is, where _is_ this club? I’d like to sign up. I’d be nice to be able to hang out with people I could at least _consider_ pursing relationships with without risking yet another religion-based collapse. Well, now, you might be missing out on the real fun. If you find a partner with whom you feel a strong bond forming, the two of you will seek a way to make your shared space comfortable to both of you. If that way cannot be found, you move on. If you are able to achieve a mutually satisfying concord, it will lend a strong sense of accomplishment to have overcome such a daunting obstacle. In the end, religion does not have to be the substance or theme of a relationship. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/84 "2021-02-20T04:48:50Z")
I always interpreted “no atheists in foxholes” to mean that atheists are pacifists, and avoid geetting into foxholes in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/85 "2021-02-20T06:44:05Z")
I’ve never heard it used that way. I’ve always heard it used in a way that means all atheists, under enough duress, will either 'fess up that they really do believe, or they will realize the “truth.” Like, they’re all disingenuous or deluded until a crisis, at which point no one sticks to atheism. It’s meant to be critical. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/86 "2021-02-20T20:48:03Z")
I wasn’t serious either. Obviously there is no such thing as atheist club, or any rules anyone has to follow. My only point is that no one should feel bad if they call out to something during a dire time. It doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/87 "2021-02-20T22:05:37Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > it hadn’t occurred to me that this was offensive to atheists Presumably it occurs to you now, right? So you won’t go around using it? The saying isn’t ‘everybody prays in foxholes’ (although it would be false if it were. Probably not even everybody swears in foxholes, though I suspect that’s even more common.) The saying is ‘there are no atheists in foxholes’: which means clearly that nobody’s really an atheist. Haven’t been in a foxhole; but what I tend to say when things are going really wrong is ‘oh shit oh shit oh shit.’ > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I think it’s just human nature to call out to _something_ in desperate times. Don’t remember where I saw this, though it’s actually pretty accurate, at least if the kitten can’t hide: –If you threaten a puppy, it rolls over on its back and pleads for mercy. –If you threaten a human child, it looks around for adult help. –If you threaten a kitten, it puffs up its fur, arches its back, and prepares to desperately attempt to defend itself. Human adults, also, often reflexively look for help when feeling threatened. Doesn’t mean they believe that help is coming, let alone coming from the appealed-to source. As to the OP: I think that’s just the human appeal-for-help reflex. In a situation in which it seems clear that yelling ‘help’ at some specific human(s) won’t do any good, the reflex is in most people still there. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > much like ‘‘gosh darn it!’’ will never be able to substitute for an emphatic _God damn!_ I don’t think anything will have the same emotional impact as some religious sentiment. Religious blasphemy doesn’t have an emotional impact for me. ‘God damn’ is if anything weaker than ‘oh shit!’ and much weaker than ‘oh fuck!’ Having some form of swearwords does seem important to humans. (And I do use ‘damn’ or even ‘god damn’ sometimes; mostly as an intensifier.) But there’s no reason they have to be specifically religious. > [@eschrodinger](#): > > Views of dualistic natures, good vs evil, naïve innocence vs knowing sin, the symbolism of dark vs light, concepts of “being in hell,” or that something is “a hellscape,” innocence and beauty are “angelic,” etc. Even if I avoid actively using, and try to be aware of such concepts, they are all around us and we would not understand our culture without being fluent in some of these aspects of Christianity. > > So yes, you can be an atheist and never have believed any of it, but I don’t think anyone raised in this culture could say they haven’t been influenced by it, or that they have rejected every aspect of Christian influence. There’s a whole lot of back-of-the-head assumptions that go along with Christian culture, even when there’s no overtly religious language attached to them. Ditto, I’m sure, for other cultures. I probably notice the Christian ones more because of being a non-Christian living in a primarily background-Christian society; but that doesn’t mean I haven’t absorbed some of them. But I’ve had, for as long as I can remember, what feels like an instinctive objection to dualism; whether it’s been presented to me as part of a religious belief, or as part of a logic course. Some part of me just responds, on a very deep level, _but that’s not the way the universe works!_ If there’s nothing but light, you can’t see anything at all, you go blind – the dark is essential, they’re part of the same thing. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > My grandfather wasn’t an atheist _until_ he got near, y’know, foxholes. Yeah, there’s that reaction also. My grandmother was at a demonstration against the Czar. Her best friend was trampled to death by horseback police while praying to (in the friend’s case, Christian) god to save her. My grandmother was a vehement atheist for the rest of her life. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/88 "2021-02-20T22:29:55Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I wasn’t serious either. Obviously there is no such thing as atheist club Actually, there is, or was. I can attest that I went to a meeting of the atheist society at the library many years ago. Most of the discussion revolved around how fucked up religion is. Never went again. Never saw the point. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/89 "2021-02-20T22:41:01Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Actually, there is, or was. I can attest that I went to a meeting of the atheist society at the library many years ago. Most of the discussion revolved around how fucked up religion is. Never went again. Never saw the point. Yeah, the conversation about atheism is necessarily about how wrong religion is, because what else is there to talk about? “Hey, there’s no god.” “Yep.” “Yep.” “Yep.” (crickets) “Um, you want to go out and get something to eat?” “Naw, I barely know you. See you.” ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/90 "2021-02-20T22:50:42Z")
There isn’t a ‘The Atheist Club’; but there must be quite a batch of different atheist clubs. So much social life around here is organized around churches that some friends and I at one point talked about starting an Atheists and Agnostics Meeting – not to complain about religion, but to have something routine and semi-organized to go to. We never got around to it, though; and some of them moved, and so on. – there are certainly some atheists in foxholes, and I strongly suspect that there are also quite a few atheists going to church; not because they deep down believe the dogma, but because in their community and/or family it serves a social function that they’re unwilling to walk out on. > [@begbert2](#): > > the conversation about atheism is necessarily about how wrong religion is, because what else is there to talk about? How to have a midwinter etc. party without being specifically religious about it? Who found some neat decorations, who’s going to bring the soup and the dessert, can we do this over Zoom this year, are we going to do presents, – I could go on for quite a while. How can our group help out in x disaster, do we want to contribute to the town’s new playground, I’ve got these tools I inherited but can’t use them but maybe you can – I could go on for quite a lot longer. Is dualism essentially religious and if so what’s it doing in formal logic, how could we best promote a society that protects both religion and the lack of it, what would a society look like that hasn’t got any religious organizations, are there any such known societies, does that particular society somebody brought up really work that way or should x running through it be considered a religion – could keep going till four in the morning and start up again the next night. ETA: not to mention, look at this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2021, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/91 "2021-02-20T23:37:23Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Yeah, the conversation about atheism is necessarily about how wrong religion is, because what else is there to talk about? In a religious country like the US? Lots of things: - Separation of church and state issues e.g. “There’s a proposal to teach intelligent design in my county” - Supporting people who have “come out” as atheist from a religious upbringing and are being ostracized and/or generally finding it tough - Supporting prominent atheists e.g. running for office Also philosophical discussion. Because, there are a lot of topics that are suddenly legitimate debates where to a theist the answer may be “God knows” or “God did that”. I don’t want to sound too exclusive – I am fine with theists taking part in such debates and expressing their view. But in a situation where most people are believers the discussion may never really get started, whereas if most people are atheists, it can. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2021, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/92 "2021-02-21T00:39:45Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Presumably it occurs to you now, right? So you won’t go around using it? Although I’ve heard others say it, I don’t know that I ever _have_ used the expression, so continuing not to do it shouldn’t be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2021, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/93 "2021-02-21T04:19:03Z")
An atheist is a person who reads Jesus’ teachings about compassion and fairness and honesty and the Golden Rule, and says “That’s all just common sense – what else has he got?”. And then rejects all the dead-weight OT bologna. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2021, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/94 "2021-02-21T04:27:12Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Where do I turn for that spiritual boost now? You may want to check out Buddhism. While I do not consider myself a Buddhist, I definitely have pro-Buddhist leanings, having lived most of my adult live completely immersed in a total Buddhist environment. Plus the wife is a Buddhist. If I were to feel the need to select a religion, Buddhism would be my first choice, hands down. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2021, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/95 "2021-02-21T04:42:01Z")
+1. I consider myself a Buddhist and find it’s really easy to practice without dogma. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2021, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/96 "2021-02-21T10:20:15Z")
Taoism has a creation preamble, but after that, it makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2021, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/97 "2021-02-21T15:46:30Z")
If someone were to combine Tao with Buddhism, that could be a thing. Maybe even include some kind of monkey with a big magic stick. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2021, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/98 "2021-02-21T15:55:54Z")
Why the need to replace theism with something else? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2021, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/99 "2021-02-21T16:42:05Z")
Apparently she does feel an unfulfilled need or she wouldn’t have posted it. Look, I get it. Not every atheist minds being an atheist. Some people don’t need or want any kind of spiritual life. That is not the case with all of us. And I’d argue it can be an especially difficult transition if you were, at any time, a True Believer. I always believed in God as a child, but in my teen years, my belief in God helped me to survive the trauma of my childhood. I read the Bible and prayed multiple times a day. My conceptualization of God was as my witness and ally. It was a double - edged sword, to be sure. But when I really came to terms with my atheism, maybe around the age of 18 or 19, I was bereft. I needed some way to make sense of my new reality. And there’s an undercurrent of responses in this thread that dismisses those of us who have a more complex relationship with our lack of belief. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2021, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234/100 "2021-02-21T17:10:08Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > I’ve always heard it used in a way that means all atheists, under enough duress, will either 'fess up that they really do believe, or they will realize the “truth.” Like, they’re all disingenuous or deluded until a crisis, at which point no one sticks to atheism. It’s meant to be critical. Yup, exactly. It saying that atheism isn’t actually real, and when it actually matters and your life in on the line, you’ll finally admit it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-lifes-foxholes/933234.md?page=6)