# Atheists and the prayers of others **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2007, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862 "2007-03-21T14:22:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/21 "2007-03-21T21:49:51Z")
“Thoughts and prayers for you and your family.” is pretty much an all-encompassing gesture, and (to me) it does not not seem to be as polarizing. I say it to let people know of any or no religious background (because I don’t want to pry by asking which may become polarizing), that I empathize, and that I care about their well-being. ---
**Author:** ![Beaucarnea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c0e974/32.png) [@Beaucarnea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beaucarnea)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/22 "2007-03-21T22:02:46Z")
I just wanted to say thanks to **Hampshire** for sharing such a personal experience. I am sorry that your family experienced the loss, but grateful that you both have the reason and emotional tools to cope with it. Much peace and happiness to you. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/23 "2007-03-21T22:43:10Z")
If somebody asked me to pray for them, I’d make no answer. They’ve asked for something I can’t/won’t give them, and my options are to say “no I won’t” or to remain silent. Fortunately, the first guy already gave the person the answer they wanted, so hopefully they’ll be satisfied. (Anybody who would ask me to pray doesn’t know me all that well anyway, so my answer would be relatively less important one presumes.) If the person prior to me offered their prayers, I’d probably say something on the order of “I hope things get better for you,” making no reference to the previous speaker. (Oh, and with reference to **DtC** ’s throwaway comment, I _have_ been asked to lead prayers, both by new acquaintences and by persons who should have known better. In all cases I rather flatly answer “No.” After a moment of recovery someone else generally volunteers, and life goes on.) ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/24 "2007-03-21T22:59:34Z")
I am delighted by the thoughtful and gracious responses by everyone. It means a lot to me that it is not automatic to assume that any mention of prayer is assumed to be thinly veiled proselytizing and implied condemnation of heresy. I am more often distressed by the vanity of professed Christians than by the abrasive denials of atheists, and it feels good to have that reinforced here on my favorite place to discuss people, thoughts, and philosophy. For me, the offer of prayers alone is lip service, most especially if offered by a Christian. Christians are ordered to do more than pray, and not doing more “misses the mark”. (sin) Asking for my prayers is a call for help. I believe I am supposed to offer that help, and to do so without consideration of the spiritual state of the one asking. (I think their spiritual state is outside the realm of my competence or authority anyway.) The self described non theists here seem to hold that same core value, and is heartening indeed. I think my humorously intended remark about praying for someone’s soul as long as there was one soul left to save in the unreferenced thread that led me here was taken as dogma, and it left me feeling rather badly. I don’t generally announce to anyone what the content of my prayers will be. I generally respond to the request for prayers immediately, in my thoughts. (Mostly because I have a terribly unreliable memory for such things, and it seems to me that an omnipresent God can be addressed from any place, at any time with identical expectations that He will here me.) In the case where I am present and it seems possible that I am able, I will try to find out if some other aid might accompany that prayer. (Okay, I want to do that. I do do that sometimes. I don’t do it sometimes. Mea culpa.) In the unlikely, but admittedly possible case where I might pray for the spiritual benefit of an expressed atheist, I would certainly not do so out loud in their presence, or indeed anyone’s presence except the Lord. I would not pray for their salvation, as such, since I think that is an accomplished fact outside of that mentioned competence and authority. I might ask the Lord to bring peace to their hearts, and lead them to love and be loved. Again, I would feel hypocritical if my only response to perceiving (or misperceiving) that level of spiritual distress was to pray. Point by point: > [@Beaucarnea](#): > > Hard atheist. I received advice in that aforementioned thread to refrain from offering prayer as an unbeliever. I will not take that advice. Good for you! I happen to agree that it is bad advice. If you think He isn’t there, it harms no one. If you fill your heart with a desire to do or even feel good for others, it benefits them, and you. > [@Arnold Winkelried](#): > > Triskadecamus - if I, as the atheist participating in the conversation, said “I will not pray for you since this will accomplish nothing, but let me know what I can do for you”, would you, as a religious person, feel that I have unreasonably inflicted my beliefs on you? No, and I would probably accept the qualification you subsequently stepped back from with equanimity. Rather than inflicting your beliefs upon me, as I see it, you have demonstrated the beliefs of my Savior! How could I take umbrage at your action? > [@Hampshire](#): > > Now if someone came to me after the fact and tried to convince me that they didn’t live because of my lack of praying they might be met with a punch to the nose. My rage at such a thing is hard to describe. I certainly would find it harder to seek forgiveness for their blasphemy than your anger. I might punch them some too, but I really shouldn’t. > [@everyone else](#): > > Kindness and decency matter more than theology. Yep, human nature shoots from the outside, and scores! The crowd goes wild! Atheists and Christians dancing in the street! Thank you all. Tris ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/25 "2007-03-21T23:12:20Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] … Atheists and Christians dancing in the street! [/QUOTE] _sniff_ And me! Don’t forget me! ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/26 "2007-03-21T23:13:53Z")
The agnostics _might_ be dancing in the street. Possibly. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/27 "2007-03-21T23:14:51Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] The agnostics _might_ be dancing in the street. Possibly. 😉 [/QUOTE] But how can they know for sure if there is a street? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/28 "2007-03-21T23:16:07Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but I think the scenario in the OP is, “I’m going to pray for our mutual friend here”, or “Why, yes, Suffering Sally, I will pray for you, since you asked. What do you think, Atheist Bob?” not “I will pray for you, Atheist Bob.” I’m also interested in some atheist answers, as I’m always a little uncomfortable offering prayers and even more uncomfortable offering magickal assistance in mixed company. I’ll generally do so only if the person needing help is obviously open to such things - asking outright being the best indication, but also previous discussion about prayer. But I do worry that I’ll be attacked or simply overwhelmed with eyerollies from atheist bystanders. [/QUOTE] I’m with WhyNot here. It says in the OP > [@](#): > > Now further suppose that there are three of us in the exchange, me, you, and a third party known only as the sufferer. \*\*We know nothing of the sufferer \*\* other than he is reasonably to be believed to be truthful, and not engaged in any particular deception with respect to himself, us, or God. The sufferer has told us of his suffering, and his emotional response to its cause. **Each of us has known, and interacted with the sufferer** , and consider him not to be a stranger. \ I read this as an acquaintance, perhaps co-worked that we know somewhat but not very well. > [@](#): > > Either the sufferer **himself asks** for our prayers, or, **I offer** my own prayers for him First scenario is Mr. Suffer asks directly for our prayers. I would not necessarily assume that meant right now, hold a prayer meeting. I’d assume it meant “through this ordeal” and would feel no discomfort. Second scenario, you offer and begin to pray right there and then. I may be caught a bit off guard but I’d respectfully bow my head in silence. I’d even offer an Amen at the end. Only then could this become ackward. If one or both, Mr Suffer and/or **Trisk** were to then look to me in anticipation, I expect I’d simply say that he would be in my thoughts and wishes and offer any kind of real assistance I felt appropriate to our relationship. I am a hardcore athiest BTW. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/29 "2007-03-21T23:34:20Z")
**WhyNot** , yeah! Dance away! We are dancin’ with the Muslims and Hindus and Wiccans and Kurds and Druse, and Sihks, and Buddhists, and Shintoists, and the Jews, and the Rastafarians, and some Librarians, too. Tris ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/30 "2007-03-22T00:53:26Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] **WhyNot** , yeah! Dance away! We are dancin’ with the Muslims and Hindus and Wiccans and Kurds and Druse, and Sihks, and Buddhists, and Shintoists, and the Jews, and the Rastafarians, and some Librarians, too. Tris [/QUOTE] Don’t forget the Veterinarians [obscure reference to a scene in a **Laurel and Hardy** short film]. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/31 "2007-03-22T01:20:24Z")
Another atheist who opts for the “you’re in my thoughts” routine. I think it’s the atheist equivalent of, “I’ll pray for you.” Here’s a related anecdote: Awhile ago, on another messageboard, I was discussing religion with a few people. One of them is a Catholic priest for whom I have tremendous respect. I was explaining that for me, atheism was not a choice: I simply could not choose to believe in God. A few times in my life, when things were really rough, I’d tried to convince myself that I was a believer; but after a few hours, the attempts always failed, as I admitted that it was a pathetic sham of belief. Anyway, the priest asked me if I would mind if he prayed for me, prayed that God revealed himself to me. I really like the guy, and I told him that I was touched by the gesture and didn’t mind, but that I hoped he wouldn’t get his hopes up about it; I’m comfortable now in my atheism. And I thought that would be the end of it–until I saw the thread he started in which he linked to my earlier post and asked all the board’s other Christians to join him in praying that God would reveal himself to me. Several did so, happily, seeing it as a cheerful gesture of friendship. It **freaked me out**. I was eventually able to explain to him why (essentially, it felt equivalent to my asking other atheists to join me in hoping that he would become enlightened enough to reject belief in God), and he understood and apologized, but a few other Christians got really pissed off at me. So maybe that’s my question. Is that another typical response of atheists to Christians? How do you feel about Christians (or other religious folks, of course, but it mainly seems to be Christians who do this) praying for your conversion? Do you regard it as harmless? As a gesture of benevolence? As something threatening? As something insulting? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/32 "2007-03-22T01:33:58Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] So maybe that’s my question. Is that another typical response of atheists to Christians? How do you feel about Christians (or other religious folks, of course, but it mainly seems to be Christians who do this) praying for your conversion? Do you regard it as harmless? As a gesture of benevolence? As something threatening? As something insulting? [/QUOTE] I feel the same way I felt when some alleged witch doctor in Liberia once threatened to turn me into a dog by casting a spell. I was like, “really? Cool. I gotta see this.” I don’t see people praying for my conversion as malevolent or threatening so much as misguided, naive and futile. In a situation like the one you described, I’d probably be egging them on to pray more. What a great opportunity to demonstrate the uselessness of petitionary prayer. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/33 "2007-03-22T02:53:04Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I feel the same way I felt when some alleged witch doctor in Liberia once threatened to turn me into a dog by casting a spell. I was like, “really? Cool. I gotta see this.” I don’t see people praying for my conversion as malevolent or threatening so much as misguided, naive and futile. In a situation like the one you described, I’d probably be egging them on to pray more. What a great opportunity to demonstrate the uselessness of petitionary prayer. [/QUOTE] The thing was, I really like the priest, and egging him on would have been disrespectful. I may not believe in God, but I think his belief in God is beautiful: it’s pretty much **the** defining characteristic of who he is, and he’s a fantastic person, as near as I can tell. I really have no desire to demonstrate anything to him. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/34 "2007-03-22T04:12:39Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] So maybe that’s my question. Is that another typical response of atheists to Christians? How do you feel about Christians (or other religious folks, of course, but it mainly seems to be Christians who do this) praying for your conversion? Do you regard it as harmless? As a gesture of benevolence? As something threatening? As something insulting? [/QUOTE] I might pray for a life altering experience for an atheist, but I think that Salvation is the province of the Lord alone, so it strikes me as presumptuous to petition specific action from the Lord. I also believe He shall save every soul that will be saved, and so it is an unnecessary prayer as well. But that is all theology. Personally, I would feel it was rude to do what your priest friend did. It is also really potentially threatening, since even in the case of heartfelt sincerity on his own part, I know entirely too well how other Christians might respond to you after such an announcement. Surely a priest could be expected to know that. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/35 "2007-03-22T11:42:03Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] But that is all theology. Personally, I would feel it was rude to do what your priest friend did. It is also really potentially threatening, since even in the case of heartfelt sincerity on his own part, I know entirely too well how other Christians might respond to you after such an announcement. Surely a priest could be expected to know that. [/QUOTE] He did apologize to me afterward. I think that he saw it as entirely benevolent and did it without giving it much thought; when he did think about it, he felt bad. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/36 "2007-03-22T12:32:42Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] But how can they know for sure if there is a street? 😃 [/QUOTE] Because **WhyNot** (and what an appropiate name in this case) is dancing in it! ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/37 "2007-03-22T13:16:24Z")
Hard Atheist here – you could use my atheism to scratch a diamond. Is the scenario limited to Christians? Or are you thinking of a generic believer/non-believer divide here? If this is relevant to all faiths and interfaith, I would most likely pray along. If a sufferer asks me for a hug, will I not hug them? If they ask me to think of them, should I not? So – if what makes them feel better is having people going through the motions of praying for them – why should I not? The placebo effect being as strong as it is, I’d probably actually be helping them that way! If you are limiting the discussion to Christians, I’d answer something along the lines of “Well, I’m Jewish… do you still want me to join you in prayer?”\* And I’d go along with whatever sufferer wished (that is, I would happily join in a Christian prayer for them, if that is what would help them psychologically.) Like I said already, I consider prayer to be on par with giving someone a hug, or offering some kind words. Nothing more, but also nothing less. - Because, by birth and culture, I am. * * * Now, if someone offered to pray **for me** , I would politely point out that I am an atheist, and that I would prefer that they just offer me their best wishes. If they still **insisted** on praying for me / for my soul I’d say a few choice words and walk away (the better to keep me from succumbing to my inclination toward decking the asshole.) ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/38 "2007-03-22T17:13:16Z")
[QUOTE=Beaucarnea] I just wanted to say thanks to **Hampshire** for sharing such a personal experience. I am sorry that your family experienced the loss, but grateful that you both have the reason and emotional tools to cope with it. Much peace and happiness to you. [/QUOTE] ## I’d like to echo what Beau said, since I cannot improve on it. As has been pointed out, it’s wrong to tell someone that “things would have turned out better if only you had prayed.” A. How do they know? B. This is a terrible thing to say to someone who has suffered. C. Praying might not have made any difference. Whenever I hear someone say that their house was spared from the flood/fire/hurricane/quake/other disaster because they prayed for protection, I wonder what they’d say about all the neighbors who also prayed but lost their house anyway. I think prayer is more comforting for the one doing the praying than it is for the one being prayed for. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/39 "2007-03-22T17:54:24Z")
[QUOTE=vivalostwages] I think prayer is more comforting for the one doing the praying than it is for the one being prayed for. [/QUOTE] I agree with this. That’s probably why I don’t care to argue or put up a fuss with people who pray. If it makes them sleep better at night no harm done. Similar to letting my son sleep with a stuffed animal because he feels safer. I’m not about to rip it out his hands and say “Don’t be stupid, that toy can’t protect you, it’s just a bunch of fabric and stuffing.” If it helps him sleep at night then it’s doing it’s job. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862/40 "2007-03-24T12:43:13Z")
Intriguing OP question. I’m a pretty devout athiest. I wouldn’t offer my prayers. If someone did ask me to pray for them, I’d feel uncomfortable, but if I thought they were really suffering I’d agree to pray for them. And I would even do so, though doubtful if I were “doing it right”. The reason is that I wouldn’t want to hurt their feelings, or lie to them - because I don’t know if they’d see through my deception the next time I saw them. But I wouldn’t try, for instance, to research exactly how you’re supposed to pray effectively, because I’m confident the act itself wouldn’t accomplish anything either way. In sum, if somebody I wanted not to hurt seemed to really want me to do something completely meaningless for them, I’d do it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-prayers-of-others/396862.md?page=3)