# Atheists and the rest of us **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 4, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504 "2004-07-04T16:30:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![olanv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3ec8ea/32.png) [@olanv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/olanv)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/21 "2004-07-04T18:42:31Z")
> [@Enola Straight](#): > > (paraphrased from Carl Sagan’s CONTACT) > > Fully 90% of the world’s population believe in a God or gods, a soul or spirit, the afterlife…some supernatural/paranormal existance beyond the physical reality we percieve. > > Do Atheists believe us 90%'ers suffer from some sad delusion? non-corporeal being = oxymoron I do take the stance that imperfect knowledge and delusion are the same. I find the point trivially inarguable. If your knowledge is not complete with respect to that which circumvents your intent, delusion will manifest in some direction during the course of the intents you formulate. As for the sad (and conversely “happy” part)… I find it unfortunate that happiness can validate ideas and beliefs that will ultimately circumvent the intent of a human being. That people recieve purpetual positive re-inforcement for ideas that serve no other purpose than to kill them, when you know that people want the option to not be killed. Tragic IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/22 "2004-07-04T18:52:18Z")
> [@olanv](#): > > I find it unfortunate that happiness can validate ideas and beliefs that will ultimately circumvent the intent of a human being. What is the “intent of a human being”? ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/23 "2004-07-04T18:54:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’ve misdirected your question, since this category doesn’t exclude atheists. (The fact that it’s 90% of the world’s population should make this clear. In [the SD “What’s the most popular religion?” column](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mreligio.html), **Eutychus** writes “Strangely enough, if you count it as religion, atheism is #2 at 1,782,809,000.” The column is undated, but even today that’s more than a quarter of the world’s population.) There are atheists who believe in various supernatural or paranormal phenomena, be it aliens or souls or whatnot. They just don’t think god is responsible for them. > > You’re talking to materialists, or skeptics, or whatever you might call it. Since I guess I fall into that category also: do I think you’re wrong? Definitely. “Sad delusion?” Come on. Even _I’m_ not that obnoxious. I’m presuming **Eutychus** here is counting certain Eastern faiths like Buddhism as atheistic? Not unreasonable, given that while almost all Buddhists believe in an afterlife, they have no god in the sense of Christianity or such. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/24 "2004-07-04T18:58:06Z")
If you look at the list, Buddhists are considered as “Buddhists”. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/25 "2004-07-04T19:00:15Z")
If, in my heart of hearts, I believe my keys are in my other pants, and then find that I was wrong, was I deluded? I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![olanv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3ec8ea/32.png) [@olanv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/olanv)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/26 "2004-07-04T19:10:37Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > What is the “intent of a human being”? Intent is what can be remembered as you, ideas and sensations, that superimpose the motion of an impulse. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/27 "2004-07-04T19:16:39Z")
> [@olanv](#): > > Intent is what can be remembered as you, ideas and sensations, that superimpose the motion of an impulse. I have no clue what that means, but OK. Religion bad, whatever that is good? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/28 "2004-07-04T19:18:00Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > I’m presuming **Eutychus** here is counting certain Eastern faiths like Buddhism as atheistic? Not unreasonable, given that while almost all Buddhists believe in an afterlife, they have no god in the sense of Christianity or such. I think he probably did, but the column doesn’t make it clear. > [@scotandrsn](#): > > Oh, there are certainly reasons for the lumping, as far as tracking how many people share similar basic belief systems, but when you get to the sorts of arguments like this OP, which is: > > 1. We’re right > 2. You’re wrong > 3. 'Cuz just look at how many of us there are > > I think you then need to take into account just who wants to be included in “us”. Definitely. > [@olanv](#): > > I find it unfortunate that happiness can validate ideas and beliefs that will ultimately circumvent the intent of a human being. Whatever the ‘intent’ part of the sentence means (I found the second post made it even less clear), he has a point with the first half. ---
**Author:** ![olanv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3ec8ea/32.png) [@olanv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/olanv)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/29 "2004-07-04T19:20:41Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > If, in my heart of hearts, I believe my keys are in my other pants, and then find that I was wrong, was I deluded? I don’t think so. To find that the core of your being was incorrect, is to find that that wasn’t the core of your being. At that moment, you thought the core of your being was the core of your being… moments later, you realized that wasn’t true. You, were, in that prior moment, under a state of delusion. You actually believed “in your heart of hearts” was present, and yet you find moments later that it wasn’t. And then you state that you were not in delusion at that moment. More delusion? ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/30 "2004-07-04T19:21:01Z")
> [@the raindog](#): > > The bible identified the earth as being a globe a few thousand years before Galileo. Cite? Book, chapter and verse? Because Chapter 1 of Genesis calls the sky a “dome,” which implies to me that it covered something flat. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/31 "2004-07-04T19:25:42Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > You’re also leaving out the fact that the Greeks and Romans knew the world was round and all kinds of other scientific facts, and those were well known even in the medieval era. Greeks and Romans and Israelites and Hittites, _et al_ are newcomers. Human history goes back a lot further than that with most of it unwritten. I have no doubt, although I can’t prove it, that there was a time that 100% of the humans who thought about it at all, thought the world was flat. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/32 "2004-07-04T19:26:48Z")
> [@Enola Straight](#): > > Do Atheists believe us 90%'ers suffer from some sad delusion? While we’re at it, do Christians think Hindus suffer from a sad delusion? do Moslems think Shintoists do? I’m an atheist who doesn’t. It is a bit much to expect everyone to go against their childhood training and the strong beliefs of their community. Not to mention in much of the world it is even more difficult to be an atheist than in the US, and much more than in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/33 "2004-07-04T19:29:41Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Greeks and Romans and Israelites and Hittites, _et al_ are newcomers. Human history goes back a lot further than that with most of it unwritten. I have no doubt, although I can’t prove it, that there was a time that 100% of the humans who thought about it at all, thought the world was flat. I’ll go you one further, and point out that at one point, 100% of humans had no concept of a “world,” flat, oblong, spherical, or mobius strip shaped. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/34 "2004-07-04T19:36:46Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’m an atheist who doesn’t. It is a bit much to expect everyone to go against their childhood training and the strong beliefs of their community. Yes, us poor brainwashed theists. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Not to mention in much of the world it is even more difficult to be an atheist than in the US, and much more than in Europe. Which part of the world are you thinking of, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![olanv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3ec8ea/32.png) [@olanv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/olanv)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/35 "2004-07-04T19:40:51Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > I have no clue what that means, but OK. Religion bad, whatever that is good? First and foremost, if I’m not clear in an instance where I intend to communicate an idea other than “not clear” – that is not “good”. It is not “good” that I had to be asked twice, because it suggests that I’m wasting time, and am delusional. If I try again, and it still remains unclear, I have wasted even more. If I get someone who agrees with me on what remains unclear to you, then I have started a religion… this is not “good”. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/36 "2004-07-04T19:43:37Z")
> [@olanv](#): > > First and foremost, if I’m not clear in an instance where I intend to communicate an idea other than “not clear” – that is not “good”. It is not “good” that I had to be asked twice, because it suggests that I’m wasting time, and am delusional. If I try again, and it still remains unclear, I have wasted even more. If I get someone who agrees with me on what remains unclear to you, then I have started a religion… this is not “good”. Maybe I’m just being slow today, but… _what_? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/37 "2004-07-04T19:44:40Z")
> [@Fiver](#): > > Cite? Book, chapter and verse? Because Chapter 1 of Genesis calls the sky a “dome,” which implies to me that it covered something flat. It’s interesting that you feel that it implies that it covers something flat. I wouldn’t have made that assumption at all. No matter though, the bible does _not_ say the world is flat anywhere. **Isaiah 40:22** says in part, “He who sits enthroned above the circle of the earth…” (Most translations use the word “circle.”) In any event, the bible makes no direct comment about the earth’s spherical shape, and my only point (as I do not want to hijack the thread) was that while there was bad information about the earth, it was not the bible that was guilty. It was people, who took some liberty and interpretated verses like Gen 1:6 incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/38 "2004-07-04T19:48:36Z")
> [@olanv](#): > > First and foremost, if I’m not clear in an instance where I intend to communicate an idea other than “not clear” – that is not “good”. It is not “good” that I had to be asked twice, because it suggests that I’m wasting time, and am delusional. If I try again, and it still remains unclear, I have wasted even more. If I get someone who agrees with me on what remains unclear to you, then I have started a religion… this is not “good”. **olanv** , put down that kool-aid and step back slowly…Don’t make any sudden moves… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/39 "2004-07-04T19:55:50Z")
> [@the raindog](#): > > It’s interesting that you feel that it implies that it covers something flat. Don’t lean too far back on the couch, Freud, it’s not an unreasonable assumption. 😉 > [@](#): > > In any event, the bible makes no direct comment about the earth’s spherical shape, and my only point (as I do not want to hijack the thread) was that while there was bad information about the earth, it was not the bible that was guilty. It was people, who took some liberty and interpretated verses like Gen 1:6 incorrectly. True, but you’re also interpreting. The Bible does use the phrase “corners of the Earth.” And for that matter, the Earth isn’t a circle. Circles are two-dimensional. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504/40 "2004-07-04T20:00:15Z")
Probably referring to the old TO map :-p [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-and-the-rest-of-us/253504.md?page=3)