# Atheists are NOT just another religion **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2005, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491 "2005-12-07T12:36:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/221 "2005-12-09T20:17:14Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Thus, I have not made any statement that can not be proven. The trouble comes when someone hears me discussing the non-existence of (the Christian) god, and assumes I am making some sort of position claim about god, defined in their eyes as some sort of form of the Universe, based on their own wishful thinking. Obviously, I can not say that god does not exist, when the word god refers to some non-well-defined concept. So I don’t. Debating you is useless, but . . . > > Now, Der Trish has said, time and time again, that there is no god, as per my above example. Big fucking deal. Reality check: Last time I looked, there were more atheists in American than Jews. If there was a atheist groupthink, don’t you think we would have BIG lobbying firms working with us, re: the First Amendment actually being honored? You are arguing for an absolute. We are saying that some atheists act in a dogmatic fashion and act with group think. You are arguing this. So…answer me this true or false. **No atheists engage in groupthink with other self-proclaimed atheists ever.** Erek ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/222 "2005-12-09T20:23:51Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You are arguing for an absolute. We are saying that some atheists act in a dogmatic fashion and act with group think. You are arguing this. > > So…answer me this true or false. > > **No atheists engage in groupthink with other self-proclaimed atheists ever.** > > Erek True. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/223 "2005-12-09T20:25:38Z")
You seem to have excluded your middle , **was**. How can you walk around without a torso? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/224 "2005-12-09T20:28:07Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > Being non-religeous myself, I still realize that alot of what is called “Western” culture ows a huge debt to the Judeo-Christian tradition and that religion in general has been the glue that has held societies together over the millenia. > > I can understand the anxiety religeous people feel about a secular society and in a way, they are right. We’re losing some common ground that keep us together and so far, there hasn’tbeen anything strong enough to take its place… What disturbs me more about our secular society is the oppressive sameness, the sanitation of everything that can be constituted as ‘culture’. We are looking for this antiseptic reality that would rather people give up their individuality rather than offend someone for being different. It is the shallowness that bothers me. It is the attempt at giving easy answers to questions that don’t have easy answers and then considering the case closed. That’s my problem largely with atheism, they take all these millenia of human experience, and consider the door shut on the question that many people consider important, and somehow the atheist opinion has made it into the pedagogy as though it is a virtue, when there is very little virtuous about it. I mean go ahead, don’t believe in God if you don’t but don’t act like it sets your intellect on some higher plane than those who do believe in God, just because you came up with some simplistic answer to the question that was easily disproved, and felt satisfied enough that you “knew the answer”. That’s pretty anti-intellectual in my world. I feel that shallowness is a greater threat than whether or not people find it in their heads that secularism justifies rape and murder. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/225 "2005-12-09T20:30:10Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > You seem to have excluded your middle , **was**. How can you walk around without a torso? :dubious: Not mentioning something, and excluding it are two different things. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/226 "2005-12-09T20:31:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > True. Well at least you have the courage of your convictions. The truth may not be on your side, but at least you’ve got faith. Erek ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/227 "2005-12-09T20:33:10Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > I wish I could find something that would guide _me_, but haven’t so far. Don’t hurt people. Give a little something back. Have fun. Works for me. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/228 "2005-12-09T20:35:31Z")
In case anyone is curious about dictionary definitions of **RELIGION** , these are from [OneLook Dictionary Search](http://www.onelook.com) . Quick definitions (religion) noun: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny noun: institution to express belief in a divine power (Example: “He was raised in the Baptist religion” Online Etymology Dictionary Modern sense of “recognition of, obedience to, and worship of a higher, unseen power” is from 1535. Religious is first recorded c.1225. Compact Oxford English Dictionary noun 1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2 a particular system of faith and worship. Merriam-Webster OnLine 1 a : the state of a religious \ b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance 2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices Cambridge Online Dictionary 1 [C or U] the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship: the Christian religion. American Heritage, 2000 1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. Encarta World English Dictionary 1.beliefs and worship: people’s beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life. ## 2.system:an institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine. Well, there’s no endorsement of atheism as a religion from Merriam, Oxford, Cambridge, American Heritage or the OneLook quick definition. And, if we want to be honest, they rule the idea right out. Encarta allows “beliefs and opinions” about deities and worship thereof to be a religious “belief”, but a religious “system” needs “practices relating to the divine”. So atheism could be a religious belief, but not a religion. And lastly from my own Random House Webster’s Unabridged, 1997: n. 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affaris. 2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects. That would allow atheism (active and passive and also agnosticism) room under the umbrella, but the “esp.” clause in definition 1. pushes it halfway out of the darkness. Overall, most dictionaries rule out atheism as a religion. It might sneak into Random House, but they wouldn’t want it to stay for dinner or use the good bathroom. **Pochacco** (#199): “it’s a roundabout attempt to justify governmental support of religion by redefining secularism as a religion itself rather than the absence of religion.” That’s what it is, all right. ~Baal~ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/229 "2005-12-09T20:40:21Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > at least you’ve got faith. No I don’t. I don’t trust faith. Never had any use for the stuff. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/230 "2005-12-09T20:42:44Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It is the shallowness that bothers me. It is the attempt at giving easy answers to questions that don’t have easy answers and then considering the case closed. That’s my problem largely with atheism, they take all these millenia of human experience, and consider the door shut on the question that many people consider important, and somehow the atheist opinion has made it into the pedagogy as though it is a virtue, when there is very little virtuous about it. What questions? As an atheist I still deal with deep all the time. Can you be specific about what shallowness you’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/231 "2005-12-09T20:49:50Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > What disturbs me more about our secular society is the oppressive sameness, the sanitation of everything that can be constituted as ‘culture’. We are looking for this antiseptic reality that would rather people give up their individuality rather than offend someone for being different. It truly boggles my mind that you can look at modern society and say that the problem with it is a _lack_ of individuality. Because we live in a secular society, people are free to practice an almost infinite variety of religions openly, or to practice no religion at all. Alternate lifestyles that have historically been oppressed by theistic societies are flourishing. While it’s difficult to show conclusively that secularism leads to multiculturalism, I think it’s significant that America was one of the first nations to enshrine freedom of religion, and was one of the first truly multicultural civilizations in history. > [@](#): > > It is the shallowness that bothers me. It is the attempt at giving easy answers to questions that don’t have easy answers and then considering the case closed. That’s my problem largely with atheism, they take all these millenia of human experience, and consider the door shut on the question that many people consider important, and somehow the atheist opinion has made it into the pedagogy as though it is a virtue, when there is very little virtuous about it. Atheism is every bit as old as theism. It’s as much a part of the millenia of human experiences as any belief system, and just as valid. It’s sad that your prejudice against atheists blinds you to this. Your pretty keen on old ideas, but only when they don’t conflict with your preconceptions. When you don’t like them, their “shallow.” > [@](#): > > I mean go ahead, don’t believe in God if you don’t but don’t act like it sets your intellect on some higher plane than those who do believe in God, just because you came up with some simplistic answer to the question that was easily disproved, and felt satisfied enough that you “knew the answer”. Very few atheists would argue that being an atheist makes you smarter than being a theist. Sure, there are some, just as there are some theists who believe that they are more moral than atheists, just by virtue of being a theist. Neither group has a monopoly on assholes. The fact that you consistently refuse to recognize this, and continue to make sweeping statements about atheists like you have in this post makes it pretty clear which kind of theist you are. > [@](#): > > That’s pretty anti-intellectual in my world. … No, it’s just too easy. > [@](#): > > I feel that shallowness is a greater threat than whether or not people find it in their heads that secularism justifies rape and murder. A threat to what? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/232 "2005-12-09T20:56:46Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > What disturbs me more about our secular society is the oppressive sameness, the sanitation of everything that can be constituted as ‘culture’. We are looking for this antiseptic reality that would rather people give up their individuality rather than offend someone for being different. Oppressive sameness? Try working in the ME for a while. 5 times a day they are in the mosque smacking their heads to the ground. Day in, day out, it is the same thing repeated ad nauseum. It is even worse during Ramadan when they pray for longer periods, stay up half the night, and don’t eat or drink during the day. It is not a time you want to be around a muslim who operates heavy equipment. Sorry, religions are not noted for endorsing or promoting individualism. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/233 "2005-12-09T21:04:47Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Oppressive sameness? All those atheist megastores like WalMart. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/234 "2005-12-09T21:08:45Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > All those atheist megastores like WalMart. Not to mention all those buildings atheists go to on Sundays where they get beaten around with a message that is, at best, variations on a theme. And all the stickers we buy saying “~god bless america” I see those everywhere you know ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/235 "2005-12-09T21:12:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think you have it backward, Well, no. Our societies have never been as big as they are right now, and being secular means that more people are looking in tealeaves than ever before in history to try to divine some kind of truth they can’t find through more orthodox means. Organized religion has held a strong hand on “Western” societies for about a 1k years and has weilded its influence for about 1700. The secular society we see today is only about 40-50 years old. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/236 "2005-12-09T21:21:19Z")
I don’t think atheists are responsible for the ‘oppressive sameness’. I am sorry if it seemed like I was saying that. I was making two different points about shallow thinking, one was about oppressive sameness, the other was about atheists who answer teh questions about God too simplistically. Two seperate points. Atheists are perfectly capable of being deep, I don’t want to imply that they are not. Also, I am tired of comparisons of America to other countries. I don’t care how much worse it is in another country, that has nothing to do with America and a muslim theocracy cannot be judged by the same criteria we judge this country. Examples of Oppressive Sameness: Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, Pink Every church of a specific denomination singing the same off-key hymn People who vote based on party affiliation People who think that questions about God should be easy to answer, atheist or theist. A thousand different choices for what kind of burger wrapped in paper you want. Chilis, TGIFriday’s and Applebees being considered “choices” in the same minimall Not being able to say Merry Christmas without fear of offending someone Taking any criticism of America as an affront, comparing it to Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, a Muslim Theocracy, or whichever country pop-culture fears at the moment. So Atheists be deep to your hearts content, I just was pointing out that a lot of the arguments about God are too arbitrarily shallow, you can read my thread about “If you don’t know what God is, how can you know God doesn’t exist?” But for now, I need to go to work. Erek ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/237 "2005-12-09T21:30:49Z")
Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. For the record, I pretty much agree with you on the generic products and stores we have. I hate big chains. But I should address two of your points: -Every church of a specific denomination singing the same off-key hymn Off-key? The hymns themselves are generally spot on-key, and many are quite beautiful. It’s people that are off-key. And that’s certainly nothing new. -People who think that questions about God should be easy to answer, atheist or theist. To an atheist, any question about God should be very simple to answer: There ain’t one. What more is there to say? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/238 "2005-12-09T21:40:29Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I don’t think atheists are responsible for the ‘oppressive sameness’. I am sorry if it seemed like I was saying that. I was making two different points about shallow thinking, one was about oppressive sameness, the other was about atheists who answer teh questions about God too simplistically. Two seperate points. And the significane of this purported “shallowness” to this debate is… what, exactly? > [@](#): > > Atheists are perfectly capable of being deep, I don’t want to imply that they are not. Which is why you brought up the topic in a thread about atheism, and right off the bat blamed it on secularism. Riiiiiiight. > [@](#): > > Also, I am tired of comparisons of America to other countries. I don’t care how much worse it is in another country, that has nothing to do with America and a muslim theocracy cannot be judged by the same criteria we judge this country. Translation: Stop using examples that undercut my argument! > [@](#): > > Examples of Oppressive Sameness: > Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, Pink > Every church of a specific denomination singing the same off-key hymn > People who vote based on party affiliation > People who think that questions about God should be easy to answer, atheist or theist. > A thousand different choices for what kind of burger wrapped in paper you want. > Chilis, TGIFriday’s and Applebees being considered “choices” in the same minimall > Not being able to say Merry Christmas without fear of offending someone > Taking any criticism of America as an affront, comparing it to Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, a Muslim Theocracy, or whichever country pop-culture fears at the moment. I liked this better when it was Ewan MacGregor saying it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/239 "2005-12-10T00:32:02Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > Most of what we regard as just, fair and decent are construct made from a religeous base. I would disagree. Human ideas about justice and fairness are hard-coded in our brains through the evolutionary pressure of living in small bands of hunter-gatherers through hundreds of thousands of generations. The particular way these fundamental moral impulses are expressed are filtered through culture, but they are not pure cultural artifacts. There is such a thing as human nature. It’s interesting to contemplate what would constitute moral behavior in an intelligent being with a different evolutionary background. What would “loyalty” mean to an intelligent feline? > [@](#): > > IIRC, this is a base for some writing that C.S. Lewis made (“Mere Christianty”?) to prove that since these concepts are universal (or nearly so) among humans from Greenland to Easter Island,it must be because of some deity injecting us with all that stuff. I don’t see why a trait’s universality is considered evidence of divine origin. Did God make us hairless as well as moral? ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491/240 "2005-12-10T00:47:42Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Granted, I stole this from Jesus, but “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” works for me, without God for an enforcer. Not quite what I had in mind. I already l live by this motto, but nice try. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-are-not-just-another-religion/334491.md?page=13)