Atheists, Explain Yourselves.

Great Debates
21

Apart from the fact that all of us live in nations that have laws that decide many of these things for us, which I am more or less obliged to obey; I would argue that I determine my morality exactly the same way most believers do — we decide for ourselves what feels right.

I would challenge any religious person who says their morality comes from their religion to say that they believe and support the morality of every little thing in their holy scripture. Let’s look at the Judeo-Christian books:

I might be going out on a limb here, but I’m willing to guess if some adult said with absolute seriousness, that they were going to kill their child because that child had a smart mouth, you would (a) recoil in horror, and (b) call the cops.

So if it’s acknowledged that we pick and choose “just the good stuff” from our holy texts, once you get honest with yourself, you can only come to the conclusion that our morality doesn’t come from the Bible, but from somewhere else (I’d posit society and philosophy). Most people see the places where societal norms and the Bible overlap and ignore the horrific stuff that is also in those books.

22

I have a moral code of what I feel is right and wrong. But I established it myself (although based on my upbringing) and it’s self-enforced.

I suppose the central basis of my moral code is the categorical imperative.

23

I come from a family that has always had a lot of dogs. My parents actually bred dogs as a hobby for many years, I’ve almost always owned a dog throughout my life whenever possible and I’ve sometimes had more than one at a time. Something I have noticed innumerable times is a young puppy biting a litter mate, while often just in play it is no big deal, but puppies at play will sometimes bite too hard and hurt one another. The aggrieved puppy will then bite back, inflicting pain on the one who bit him. Through this method puppies learn to avoid intentionally hurting their peers.

Sometimes I would observe an older puppy try to harass or annoy a grown dog, grown dogs will often not tolerate even a small amount of shit from a puppy and will growl and menace the smaller, younger dog, scaring it. Thus puppies learn to respect authority and strength.

As they get older, puppies learn that certain behavior will get them rewarded with affection or food from humans, certain behavior will get them punished. Thus puppies learn how to get what they want through certain behaviors, and how to avoid things they do not like by not doing other behaviors.

Humans aren’t dogs, but I think humans pretty much work the same way. We’ve developed a lot of flowery prose and thousands of years of philosophy and theology to try and develop higher ethical systems but at the end I think we’re mostly driven by the same stuff as dogs are. I don’t do bad things because I don’t want bad things to happen to me. I don’t steal or hurt people because I don’t want to go to prison. I help friends move out of their house because that’s a bitch of a job and some of the few people you can really rely on to help you when you move are the people who you yourself have helped move.

In business I try to be friends with all our tenants and any of our contractors, I try to make sure they are happy with any dealing we have because that means we are more likely to continue having profitable relationships into the future.

I don’t need a code of ethics to know what is good for me and what is bad for me, and generally it isn’t good for someone to make enemies of others or to attract negative attention from society at large.

24

It is probably exactly the same as you. I don’t believe for one minute that if an extra book of the Bible was found saying it was OK to steal from your neighbors, cheat on your wife, and murder random strangers you would say “OK, Jesus said it that’s good enough for me”. Across religions, and among those who are not religious, there are a fundamental set of things that we view as moral behavior. Those may be codified in a religious tract, but that does not mean they originated there.

Contrast that to things that differ among religions: what kind of hat it’s OK to wear, should you have or not have a beard, what day of the week is set aside as special, is it OK to eat pork, or lobster, or cows, or must you eat fish on Fridays. These are not moral principles, just arbitrary sets of rules; that’s why they differ.

If you have to read a book to see if its OK to steal your neighbors car then there is something fundamentally wrong with you.

25

Is there an implication that before the bible came along, it was OK to do kill, rob and rape. All the bible did was codify rules that societies had come to accept. There have been laws and regulations long before the bible was cobbled together. There have been police and lawgivers long before that too.
The bible is not where our laws come from.

26

To add to what’s been mentioned upthread: Absent a divinely inspired code of ethics, we humans are limited to codes of ethics that we invent. This is, in fact, a good thing-- this frees us to form codes of ethics that fit the values that we, as the human race, select! Rather than passively accepting a divine morality, we must recognize that we humans are the highest authority available, and rely on ourselves to create a morality that will ultimately provide the greatest benefit to the human race. Because we cannot rely on a God or Gods to provide justice, we must do it ourselves. Because there is no carrot-or-stick afterlife, we must act morally here in our time here on Earth because doing so supports our society, and in order to maintain that society here, it is the responsibility of everyone in it to act in a moral way to prevent the breakdown of society.

I’ve done some reading on ethics, too; Immanuel Kant’s “categorical imperative” is a portion of it, though I don’t agree with all of his thinking. Hobbes, Locke, and Rousseau all wrote about the social contract, and that’s a huge part of my ethics. (The above paragraph is shot through with it.) I am not a Christian* but I am still moved when I read the Sermon on the Mount, and I count Jesus as one of the most important and influential ethicists of all time.

In simple words, I believe in the Golden Rule. Generally, I believe that it is wrong to interfere with other people against their wishes except in self-defense or in defense of others.

If you’re interested in reading more on the subject, Wikipedia’s article on Secular Humanism is pretty good. SH gets a bad rap from the religious right in America, but I usually think that the sort of people who use it as a slur really don’t understand what it is and rather use it as a catch-all for anything that they perceive as contrary to their particular creed.

Robert Heinlein’s short essay This I Believe is a particular favorite of mine. He shows a great faith in humans to do the right thing most of the time. It’s only a few sentences long and worth a read.

*For most values of Christian, I guess. I do not believe in the Resurrection or the salvific implications thereof, which is a pretty good benchmark.

27

What do you mean by “the problem of pain”?

28

Don’t be too big an asshole and when you are being an asshole and you know it, apologise. Also, spread the money around, you can’t take it with you.

29

Biologically evolved emotional responses and chemical reactions to stimuli, just like everybody else, including theists. Collectively these responses are what we call “conscience.”

30

This is something Christians have a hard time explaining. God is all powerful, all knowing, and all good. So why is there suffering in the world? Can God stop the suffering, but doesn’t want to? Then he’s not all good. Does God want to stop the suffering, but can’t? Then he’s not all powerful. Would God stop the suffering if he knew about it, but he doesn’t know about it? Then he’s not all knowing.

So their ultimate answer boils down to “We don’t know why God allows suffering, but there must be some sort of answer that we humans don’t understand.”

For atheists, there isn’t any such problem. Organisms evolved sensors to allow them to avoid damage. When those sensors detect damage, we call that “pain”. Since we humans are animals, the same sort of thing happens to us, and since we’re fallible evolved creatures in an uncaring universe, suffering happens constantly.

31

My sense of right and wrong is informed by many things and people, including a religious upbringing.

I am totally mystified why so many religious people feel that it is necessary to believe in god or practice a religion in order to have an ethical code. Is their ethical code based entirely on fear of punishment or hope for reward after death?

32

Empathy, secular ethics, the golden rule… no god need apply.

33

A good example from the bible is the story of “the Good Samaritan” told by Jesus. He behaved very well, helping a Jewish man. The samaritan was of course clearly not a christian, yet he did the “right” thing in my opinion.

Another good philosophy is the Golden Rule which predates christianity. But to best explain behavior among primates, my bet would be on evolutionary psychology.

34

Well, I don’t get called on a lot for mutual grooming, but I’m willing to give it a shot.

35

Pretty much, yes. I can’t tell you the amount of unhealthy resentment this fosters in many uncritically thinking theists I know, and it usually manifests itself in judgment, ignorance and hate. The irony, right?

Also, there are plenty who are intellectually lazy, so rather than think for themselves, they go by religiously fueled opinions from someone like their pastor; thinking ethics, morals, and actions fit all nice and neat in black and white boxes. This sort of segregation of ethics/behaviors leads one away from common sense in innate human morality of their fellow man, and into the realm of irrational, unpredictable injustice when they hit a truly gray area they’ve been told to put in the ‘black’ box (or vice versa).

36

“Who watches the watchmen?
That would be me.
Aaah… But who watches you?
Me again.”

Vimes in Thud!
(from memory)

(This to stop myself from doing +1 or somesuch.)

37

Besides all the other answers here I agree with, many people have a genetic sense of morality (or immorality.) Mine is excessively well developed - I’ve had two traffic tickets in 40 years of driving, and having an overdue library book drives me crazy. Clearly some religious people are just as moral, and some are a lot less moral. My religious education taught me nothing my parents didn’t and nothing which wasn’t inborn - except being slightly guilty about eating bread over Pesach.

38

Please do let us not conflate “moral” with “legal.” I’ve had more than two traffic tickets, including one for making an illegal left turn at 2 AM on a completely deserted(*) street. Does that make me immoral?

(* - well, perhaps not completely deserted. There was a cop car hiding somewhere. :smack: )

39

Same. Perhaps overly so - my good nature gets taken advantage of more often than I’d wish. But what are ya gonna do ? shrug

I also have odds and ends of a self-determined “honour code” I can’t necessarily justify in purely rational terms, but feels right enough for me. Whenever it or my gut don’t provide an easy answer, I only need ask myself: What Would Cyrano de Bergerac Do ?

40

Maybe I’m dense, but I don’t think I have a code. I judge people, decisions, and circumstances on an individual basis.

As far as empathy goes, I do have some but I don’t think that guides my decisions. For instance, I know what pain feels like. But it’s not this feeling that keeps me from inflicting physical harm. I simply rarely have the urge to get into fights (and I also know I’d get my ass kicked :)).

Self-centeredness would probably be the one thing that I look for in judging something as wrong. Jerks do things that are self-serving, damn the consequences. Lying is not always wrong, but it is often wrong when it’s motivated by selfish motives. Most criminals are that way because they have an over-inflated sense of entitlement. Anything that causes horrible, needless suffering, regardless of the motives of the perpetrator, is just patently wrong.

I did not learn this from Bible teachings…and believe me, I had a-plenty growing up. I learned this from simply watching and learning. People who are liked and appreciated tend to be generous, sensitive, and act in caring ways (regardless of their sincerity). People who are not liked tend to be selfish, insensitive, and act in uncaring ways.

Christians, I think, make the matter of morality much more complicated than it is actually is by coming up with all these “sins” that people are burdened with. They tell us that we are inherently sinful. Yet, I really struggle with coming up with the list of sins that I have committed. Perhaps I’m just really really boring, but I don’t do anything that would warrant someone’s harsh judgment. Unless you want to count “bad” thoughts as sins…then I guess I’m guilty of that. But as long as I’m not hurting anyone and behave in a decent fashion, I fail to see why my thoughts need to be judged by anyone but myself.