# Atheist's family claims he was Christian at his funeral. Should they be called on it? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 6, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564 "2014-10-06T17:29:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/81 "2014-10-06T20:50:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Who called for complete honesty? Eulogy derives from “good words,” and that’s what’s expected: tell why the person was good. Insofar as you’re telling why the person was good, however, I expect you to do so in an honest fashion. As can be done without mentioning religion or the lack of religion. If he was such a great guy it shouldn’t be that hard. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/82 "2014-10-06T20:52:50Z")
I think Amber should have said, “This is what I’m comfortable saying in a eulogy. I won’t hide his atheism and I won’t lie. Do you still want me to give it?” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/83 "2014-10-06T20:56:29Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > As can be done without mentioning religion or the lack of religion. If he was such a great guy it shouldn’t be that hard. Again, though, I don’t necessarily think the results of honesty here will be bad in the end. It might be really helpful. And when in doubt, it’s generally better to be honest. If the OP had made it sound as though the atheism were a less important part of Amber’s relationship to Mitch, I’d probably agree with you. But the OP made it pretty clear that the atheism was important to that relationship, and I don’t think she should have to hide it. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/84 "2014-10-06T20:59:16Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I think Amber should have said, “This is what I’m comfortable saying in a eulogy. I won’t hide his atheism and I won’t lie. Do you still want me to give it?” Maybe I’m the one projecting. For me you could go on for hours about me and never mention my lack of religion. And I’m not that interesting. My lack of belief in something is about on the same level as how I can’t speak Farsi. The lack of something isn’t that important. It just wouldn’t come up. Really the only ones I can think of off the top of my head who’s lack of belief was so intertwined with their being that it would have to be mentioned are Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. To most of us there is much more about what we are than what we are not. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/85 "2014-10-06T21:02:39Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Maybe I’m the one projecting. For me you could go on for hours about me and never mention my lack of religion. And I’m not that interesting. My lack of belief in something is about on the same level as how I can’t speak Farsi. The lack of something isn’t that important. It just wouldn’t come up. Really the only ones I can think of off the top of my head who’s lack of belief was so intertwined with their being that it would have to be mentioned are Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. To most of us there is much more about what we are than what we are not. Okay. I don’t see how that’s directly in response to what I said, though. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/86 "2014-10-06T21:06:03Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I think Amber should have said, “This is what I’m comfortable saying in a eulogy. I won’t hide his atheism and I won’t lie. Do you still want me to give it?” My problem with this approach is that Amber may herself want to eulogize her brother. I know the OP doesn’t say so, and that’s my fault, but certainly that’s what I intended. When my mother died, it was very important to me to stand up and speak at her funeral. It wasn’t quite the dilemma Amber faced. My mother wasn’t an atheist – she was a lifelong Pentecostal – but I was, and I wasn’t about to get all _She’s in the bosom of the lamb_ eulogizing her. So I found a way to give a tribute to her that was true to me. It also occurs to me that the other Greys may consider that Mitch WAS saved. I know Pentecostals who don’t believe backsliding is possible–that Mitch’s being saved & sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost was good for life, and that all his profession of non-faith at 18 could do was remove God’s protective shield from him in THIS life, not deny him admittance to Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/87 "2014-10-06T21:06:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Again, though, I don’t necessarily think the results of honesty here will be bad in the end. It might be really helpful. And when in doubt, it’s generally better to be honest. > > If the OP had made it sound as though the atheism were a less important part of Amber’s relationship to Mitch, I’d probably agree with you. But the OP made it pretty clear that the atheism was important to that relationship, and I don’t think she should have to hide it. The family is Pentecostal. The funeral is held in a Pentecostal church. The church that their father is pastor of. In front of all the congregants that worship there. All of whom believe that the unfaithful will go to Hell. So sure, no doubt that telling Mitch’s mother in front not only her family but in front of all of her friend’s and her husband’s flock that by her beliefs Mitch should be going to Hell will go really well. She will look on it as a teachable moment and later thank Amber for coming back into their lives after putting them through hell for years just so she could set them right about how they should feel about their dead son. They may even cheer and carry her out on their shoulders like Rudy. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/88 "2014-10-06T21:09:24Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Okay. I don’t see how that’s directly in response to what I said, though. Because I could easily do a proper and good eulogy for someone like Mitch without ever mentioning that he was an atheist. “Mitch saw the goodness in all people. He saw it in me even when I was at my lowest point.” No lies. No half truths. Didn’t mention he was a LARPer either even though it took up most of his free time. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/89 "2014-10-06T21:14:31Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > He was an atheist. He knows there is no afterlife. It is not about him. He is not around to care. It’s about those who are still alive. Funerals are definitely for the living. That’s the whole point of them. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/90 "2014-10-06T21:16:35Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Because I could easily do a proper and good eulogy for someone like Mitch without ever mentioning that he was an atheist. “Mitch saw the goodness in all people. He saw it in me even when I was at my lowest point.” > > No lies. No half truths. Didn’t mention he was a LARPer either even though it took up most of his free time. Different people find different things important, obviously. I would feel that the overt promotion of the religious angle would make my comments, if I said nothing contradictory, as a tacit endorsement of Mitch as a religious person. I would not choose to do that. On the other hand, I would not choose to turn a funeral into some sort of battle for power or control. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/91 "2014-10-06T21:22:24Z")
Bringing up Mitch’s atheism explicitly will cause a stir, no doubt. But I wonder how much of a stir Amber never mentioning God or Jesus will cause in this context. Say this act of omission will bother the father - as it might. Should Amber throw in a Jesus or two to avoid trouble, or is that giving in too much? ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/92 "2014-10-06T21:24:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’ve tried to explain what I see the value is. Let me try again. > > First, the value is to herself, telling the truth. > > Second, the value is to her relatives, showing them a narrative of a good person who was not religious. I’m not convinced either that her eulogy, honestly delivered and without malice, **will** start a fight; on the contrary, it might give some folks solace, since they already know he was an atheist (despite any self-delusions to the contrary), but they may not have a clear narrative of how an atheist can nevertheless live a good life, adhering to what some folks would consider Christian precepts. Her provision of this narrative may do them real good. Sure, I’ll concede there’s potential value there. And I’d certainly concede that it depends: what is Amber’s read on her family, on herself, and the mood in general? Some people are excellent at delivering uncomfortable or contrary claims in a non-confrontational manner (though most are not), just as some people are able to accept challenges to their most cherished values and beliefs with aplomb (though, again, most are not). Etc. I’d still have issue with the timing. Yes, she has a large and immediate audience, but if she’s going to be in her family’s life for a long time going forward, their are bound to be less combustible moments to bring them around. At the same time, a bad fight at a funeral would likely lead to her not being a part of her family’s lives going forward (we have direct experience of this phenomenon in my family, I must point out). > [@](#): > > However, as I said, I’m unconvinced that a fight will result from her eulogy, as long the eulogy is delievered for its own sake and not for the purpose of saying IN YOUR FACE to her relatives. What I do NOT think she can do is to worry too much about that humiliation, because in general, getting humiliated for lying about people is a salutary thing. It’s a feature, not a bug, of speaking honestly, that folks who didn’t speak honestly feel bad about their lies when the truth is heard. > > If they choose to start a fight with her because they feel bad about lying, I really don’t think it makes sense to offer that as a reason for backing down. That’s awful, bullying behavior, and backing down out of fear of bullying behavior rewards such behavior, leading to its spread. The best thing to do is to refuse to be intimidated by it, to act as though it doesn’t exist. That makes such behavior less productive for bullies, makes it less likely they’ll engage in it in the future. Yeah, I’m still not comfortable calling the family liars (or bullies, truly), and while being humiliated for genuine misdeeds (or mistakes) has potential value, it also has concurrent harm, and being \*publicly \*humiliated is a separate beast altogether. There’s a whole bunch of miscellaneous garbage that comes along in such a case, little of it good. And, sure, I see what you’re saying about rewarding and therefore encouraging bad behavior, but that strikes me as so much less certain, and harder to judge, than possibly causing a row. Ultimately I’m just a lot more impressed by the more immediate danger: angering a lot of people, wrecking several beneficial relationships (mostly mine), and creating a lasting point of bitterness. Not with certainty, of course, but with reasonably (or, rather, unacceptably) high degrees of probability. It may largely come down to how we imagine this playing out in our heads. It strikes me as quite likely that by choosing \*this \*moment, Amber would be dropping an ugly problem in her family’s laps (“Did you hear? The reverend raised an atheist son and a bitch daughter!”), and that for this and other reasons it would cause, well, a big hurtful mess. This is really unappealing to me since she has a better option: just wait a while to start the conversation about Mitch’s atheism, because this is literally the worst possible time. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/93 "2014-10-06T21:32:30Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > What purpose is served by Amber’s lobbing a live grenade at the funeral? That’s my thought too. I think if I was in her position, I’d just opt out entirely from giving a eulogy, and cherish the real one that I wrote. It’s just as real as if I’d got up and alienated my family for no good reason, and let the family have their own brand of solace, however divorced from reality it may be. Or do what **Quercus** suggests, if there’s no way to avoid the eulogy altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/94 "2014-10-06T21:33:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Morganstern** : > > Funerals are definitely for the living. That’s the whole point of them. Ever been to a funeral when there wasn’t a dead guy? Funerals may be for the living, but they’re about the dead. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/95 "2014-10-06T21:33:31Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Bringing up Mitch’s atheism explicitly will cause a stir, no doubt. But I wonder how much of a stir Amber never mentioning God or Jesus will cause in this context. Say this act of omission will bother the father - as it might. Should Amber throw in a Jesus or two to avoid trouble, or is that giving in too much? Probably speaking only for myself, but: _possibly_, **theoretically** , sure – if she had good reason to believe an omission would cause a big problem. That’s certainly not my reading of the situation in the OP, or in most plausible scenarios I can think of. Basically it would have to be an extreme case before I’d even consider it. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/96 "2014-10-06T21:37:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Does anyone here advocating that she either go along or at least shut up have any qualms at all about the lie? > edited to add: To everyone bringing up that there is no _need_ to talk about his atheism? There is also no _need_ to lie about a sudden deathbed conversion, is there? YES! Go with honesty, including the whole truth. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/97 "2014-10-06T21:40:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Ever been to a funeral when there wasn’t a dead guy? There was that one M_A_S\*H episode. Plus that chapter in _Tom Sawyer_. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/98 "2014-10-06T21:43:30Z")
**Skald** , were any of his close friends and acquaintances going to be there, and did they know he was an atheist, or at least know that he wasn’t a devout Christian? If she reads speech A, what might their reaction be? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/99 "2014-10-06T21:55:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > **Skald** , were any of his close friends and acquaintances going to be there, and did they know he was an atheist, or at least know that he wasn’t a devout Christian? If she reads speech A, what might their reaction be? Not a real situation. If I die in the next year, perhaps my wife or baby sister will come in to comment on what happens at my funeral. (Why is there no black humor smiley.) That said: Seems to me that only Mitch’s closest friends from New York would be at the funeral. I imagine they’d know, but also that they’d have been so gobsmacked by the funeral being functionally a born-again church service that they be too busy to say anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/100 "2014-10-06T22:11:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Ever been to a funeral when there wasn’t a dead guy? Funerals may be for the living, but they’re about the dead. Honestly, I’ve never heard a single complaint from a dead guy about his funeral. But, I’ve heard many from the living. The dead guys just don’t seem to care what happens there, yet the living apparently do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564.md?page=6)