# Atheist's family claims he was Christian at his funeral. Should they be called on it? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 6, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564 "2014-10-06T17:29:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/161 "2014-10-07T23:52:33Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Honestly, I’ve never heard a single complaint from a dead guy about his funeral. But, I’ve heard many from the living. The dead guys just don’t seem to care what happens there, yet the living apparently do. Well, many people are saying that the funaral is for the living, that the dead guy won’t care, and so on. But I’m not sure I agree. The only thing left of me after my death will be memories, and I’d like to believe they aren’t going to be tainted with bullshit intended to plase X or Y. I’d like to believe that my funerals will be a bit about me. Frankly it strikes me as very disrepectful towards the dead person to lie about him, to push under the rug the meaning he was giving to his life, to deny his values, and so on. I couldn’t do that for someone I cared about. It would feel like a betrayal. I would feel ashamed. I see the point of not hurting grieving parents (making her hopeful mother believe he will roast in hell forever, for instance) although I don’t care on the other hand about the public humiliation of a bunch of liars. that’s a though call, but I still think the funerals are also thee to honor the dead, and lying about him, or even avoiding to mention something that was apparently central for him appears to me as being about the contrary of that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/162 "2014-10-08T00:43:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In that case, there is no room for the truth( and no, a half-truth is a lie in this case, as is standing silently by and pretending that the truth is being told by others), and she should organize her own ceremony elsewhere. > edited to add: **Skald** has yet to say whether any of his non-Christian friends were going to be at the event. No one is going to any event, since this is a hypothetical. If anyone cares, I’d go with the eulogy that doesn’t mention religion at all. Much less hassle not just for the family, but the rest of the people attending the funeral. Why should they have to listen to a family bickering? In my experience, funerals tend to bring out the worst in people. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/163 "2014-10-08T05:40:02Z")
I read a good book once where a pastor laments the problem with doing a funeral for a non-christian and the family wanting to say they were. Or at least say something good about them. So the crazy aunt was now “strong spirited”. The skinflint grandpa was “shrewd with money”. It put him in a quandry. On the one hand was his belief that we are given free choice and yes - those who dont accept Christ are doomed to hell while those that do are promised eternal glory. On the other hand was the pressure to almost lie about people who he knew darn well didnt accept Christ. That could very well be the brother like was mentioned, the nice Hindu friend, or even the sweet little old lady next door who had such nice roses. He took the line to be honest. He never told the family of an atheist “you son is in heaven”. He never said they were in hell either - he would just say that it was up to God. If the pastor of the funeral is honest he should tell the truth. Speak the good points about the deceased but dont lie either. The sister should say the same. BTW, isnt it funny how over time the misdeeds of past generations will tend to be forgotten. Nobody walks thru a cemetary, points to great grandpas grave, and says “that was Grandpa Joe. He was a drunken lazy bum his whole life and we are glad he’s gone”. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/164 "2014-10-08T15:49:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Then there should be no problem with her talking about what made her brother such a great guy. Period. Exactly. Which has nothing at all to do with atheism and everything to do with how he helped her. Unless you’re saying he got his beliefs on how to be a good person from his atheism. Which then you just claimed that atheism is a religion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/165 "2014-10-08T16:06:17Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Exactly. Which has nothing at all to do with atheism and everything to do with how he helped her. > > Unless you’re saying he got his beliefs on how to be a good person from his atheism. Which then you just claimed that atheism is a religion. Right. Because it takes religion to make you a good person. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/166 "2014-10-08T16:21:22Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Exactly. Which has nothing at all to do with atheism and everything to do with how he helped her. > > Unless you’re saying he got his beliefs on how to be a good person from his atheism. Which then you just claimed that atheism is a religion. Not at all. If a person is an atheist, they’re saying (in general, you might be able to conjure up some wacky exceptions) that the universe doesn’t have a grand plan or greater purpose to it; if we want there to be any good in the universe, we’re responsible for putting it there ourselves. That is, in my experience, a pretty common basis for morality among atheists, but not as common among theists. It’s not a religious belief except for very strange definitions of religion. And it’s perfectly possible that Mitch, having come from a “don’t worry about worldly matters” tradition, turned pretty heavily to a "worry about worldly matters!’ approach once he lost faith in God. That’s how I read the OP: his concern for other people was based on his atheism (or more accurately his secular humanism). If that’s right, and if that’s a part of his memory that Amber wants to honor, she’s perfectly in the clear doing so. Lies told about Mitch to give solace to bigots ought not influence her decision. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/167 "2014-10-08T19:19:52Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Neither one. She needs a third option, that celebrates Mitch’s life, but won’t offend his family. There is no reason to mention religion at all. Other speakers apparently have covered that issue. Mitch is dead, so nothing she says is going to matter to him. No need to confront those that want to think Mitch followed that old time religion. No need to start a fight at a funeral. Discretion is the better part of valor in situations like this. She can talk about what a great person her brother was, and most of what he did for her, and she can otherwise sit down and shut the fuck up about the religion issue. It doesn’t matter, and it is definitely not worth causing a scene over. Just let it be, and do what it takes to keep the peace. This. It is possible to give a eulogy that both honors the deceased and respects the room full of grieving Christians. Let’s keep in mind that funerals are for the living. By reminding them that Mitch was an atheist, you’re not just telling them he wasn’t part of their club. In their minds, you’re telling them that he is burning in hell right now, and they certainly are not ready to deal with THAT, or deal with the questions about their own faiths that situation would bring up. They’re grieving. Now is not the time. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/168 "2014-10-08T19:24:15Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Again putting myself into the equation, you could talk about my ethics, personality and love for those close without ever mentioning religion or lack thereof. There is zero need to stir up shit at a funeral. You don’t have to lie. But you don’t have to mention everything. … Just let it go and let the family grieve for one afternoon. This, along with similar posts by many above, especially **Oakminster** > [@Czarcasm](#): > > And remembering them as best as you can. Memories are fragile, and are best protected by frequent applications of truth. And this. > [@Voyager](#): > > To add to this, what if he were gay and his parents pressured him to date in high school. And what if the earlier speakers talked about what a ladies man he was, who never got married because he didn’t want to settle down. Would Amber mentioning a man who was a significant partner to Mitch be lobbing a grenade? > > I think she could emphasize that his ethic came from his love for the world, which would be honest without saying religion was bunk. That’s a good question, and I think the answer remains the same: tell the truth but don’t rub it in people’s faces, and use words that give an “out” to those who need it. It’s funny how people hear what they want regardless of what you say anyway, unless you rub their faces in it. My wife and I were married in a nonreligious ceremony by a gay atheist rabbi, in front of mostly Catholics and Presbyterians. It was amusing some of the feedback we got, especially from the old Baptist auntie who knew that all those Catholics were going to Hell, God forbid! > [@Chronos](#): > > If, however, they are explicitly stating that he was a Christian, then they’re dishonoring him (the real him), and the honor of his memory demands that they be called out for it. As much as my heart agrees with you, my better self does not. IMHO, it’s very rare that a funeral should used to teach a lesson. While it’s unfortunate that the family is doing this, I wouldn’t consider it my job to correct them on that. But I’m weak, and they surely could push me over the edge! Perfect movie moment, in my mind. Better left to fiction or fantasy, though. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. Can you not see the incredible hypocrisy in your statement? Where is your admonishment towards the family for making this about religion and not about Mitch? Hypocrisy is pretending to be what you are not. I see no need to pretend, so there’s no hypocrisy. > [@Shodan](#): > > Assuming that atheism is true\*, then the highest good has to be human happiness or something close to that. > > Then the moral thing to do is to lie and say that Mitch had a deathbed conversion. That can’t possibly harm Mitch (or help him, or have any effect on him - he’s dead). It would make the family happy. Therefore, it’s the moral thing to do. > > \*Actually, if atheism were true, then it doesn’t make any difference what anyone does, because there is no rational basis to say that anything is “the highest good”, but let’s pretend. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. > [@Shodan](#): > > You can define it as being whatever you want - you just can’t justify it. It’s faith-based. > > That’s not “rationally defining” it. One has to take it on faith. > > Which is what drives people like **Czarcasm** crazy - all atheist morality is faith-based, just like theism, and I don’t fall for the usual dodge of trying to shift tyhe burden of proof. You notice that he isn’t even trying to counter anything I said. > > No, as a matter of fact it is right on the money. The basics of any atheist morality must be assumed. It is exactly equivalent to “The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it.” You are equating “faith” with “value”, which is a mistake. We mean different things by the terms. Religious people may accept the proposition that value is defined by a higher authority, as a matter of faith. Nonreligious people need not accept that, and do not need to cite faith when expressing their values, or applying reason and values to produce ethical statements. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And it’s perfectly possible that Mitch, having come from a “don’t worry about worldly matters” tradition, turned pretty heavily to a "worry about worldly matters!’ approach once he lost faith in God. That’s how I read the OP: his concern for other people was based on his atheism (or more accurately his secular humanism). > > If that’s right, and if that’s a part of his memory that Amber wants to honor, she’s perfectly in the clear doing so. Lies told about Mitch to give solace to bigots ought not influence her decision. That’s a good point. There may be a way to give a great, true eulogy that doesn’t address atheism head on. But then again, there may not. For example, the guy I mentioned above who married my wife and me turned out to be somewhat famous, which we didn’t know until we saw his death mentioned in the news (20 years later, after moving a thousand miles). His name was Sherwin Wine, and he’s credited with being a leading proponent of a third branch of Judaism. His philosophy and ethics were a huge part of not only his life but thousands of lives that he influenced. It would certainly be silly to hold a funeral in which he was cast as observant in the normal way. That’s an extreme case, but there’s a continuum. So, it’s possible that no eulogy would begin to do justice to this guy without being up front about his atheism. But I think that’s a fairly rare case, and that a compromise would usually be better, and might very well be what the deceased would have wanted. Personally, in this situation I would do my best to write one that took a lot of opportunities to say things like “learned from the world” or use other concrete ideas that embody atheism without naming it. In my experience, those who think that the sun rises and sets due to the daily attention from God would see God’s hand in what I said, while atheists would see what atheists see. More importantly, people who are still thinking it through would hear the truth, without any emphasis on God, and it might help them sort it out far better than would a clear statement of the “thesis”. And nobody gets to feel self-righteous about getting totally pissed off. They might be irjed at the lack of references to their deity, but that’s their problem. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/169 "2014-10-08T19:31:24Z")
“irjed” should have been “irked”, in case you wondered. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/170 "2014-10-09T05:17:08Z")
Just talk about what he liked to do, hobbies, interests, and such. Ex. He liked baseball, enjoyed bicycling, and made the best pecan pie around. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564/171 "2014-10-09T15:09:39Z")
I get very irjed by SDMB missspellingz. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/atheists-family-claims-he-was-christian-at-his-funeral-should-they-be-called-on-it/700564.md?page=8)